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noisy inverter motors on Washing machines (discussion, not repair question)


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Hello Andy hopefully you can view and here this video: 
 

 

Does this sound extra noisy to you for an inverter motor on my Samsung as far as they go? (ignore the drain pump sound in the background that is graunching / running empty) 

had a lovely quiet Hotpoint machine with an invertor motor before when belt was detached you wouldnt even know that the motor was turning it was that quiet. 

its obviously not a fault on this Samsung washing machine so it would not be worth getting an engineer out and the machine is working perfectly anyway - its Just i can hear it , that scraping/shrill noise, when the washing machine is spinning and starting up to spin and slowing down from spinning (cannot say I hear it when washing) - I could leave it but its one of those niggly things thats grating on me (literally) of course I am bothered about it and doesnt bother the mrs (saying its much better than the noise the old washing machines done with the carbon brushes) but if I put the machine back with it like that I will always be wondering if there was anything I could have done to make it that much quieter or even silent . 

I am thinking of taking existing motor off and taking it apart (it does not seem a sealed one and has posidrive normal screws holding it together) I am just thinking of just having it apart and maybe just inspecting the bearings inside and make sure they have enough grease on them and adding some more grease if needed or see where else inside the noise could be coming from.  - how would one go about taking off the pulley at the end there the drive belt goes on could you tell me ? - if not I will just try taking it apart with it on , at least I should still be able to get to the back bearing in the rear of the motor housing. 

What do you think to the noise does it sound bad to you and have you come across noisy like this in the past when you have been working on them or reckon to the inverter motors in general on washing machines ? apart from the top notch makes like miele what defines or who does the notably quietest well built quality inverter motors on the washing machines on the market these days?

thanks.

 

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UPDATE: 

Motor all apart - come apart very easily 4 posidrive (cross) head bolts with nuts on the other end . 

one thing I am concerned about is when it was altogether i was tapping the casing of the motor (front seems alloy / rear seems just tin as I was tapping with a screwdriver I was getting a terrible hollow sound , I am guessing  that in operation this is what is actually making the wash motor louder than it actually should be! - there are no vent holes at all in the motor casing - when it is all put together it is totally sealed , no air to get into the motor to cool it, and as its totally sealed I think some of the noises I am hearing is some kind of 'resonance' you know if you just got a metal tin without nothing inside and you just tap it with something and you get that hollow sound well that it what the motor sounds like when its together. and noise inside the motor would be amplified of course . 

so i am pondering whether to drill some air holes into the casing like other washing machine motors have and seeing if that cuts out the hollow sound. - that would be the next step I think or try and attack that issue before I put it back in the machine. 

the 2 internal bearings are absolutely perfect - very free running , they are sealed bearings in any case so even if they were dry I wouldnt be able to grease them up if I wanted to ... but I dont anyway because they are fine - i cannot think of anything else that would make the motor any noisier than it is. I might try putting some grease on the magnets and the armature - absolutely dry, no grease whatsover on them 

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  • Root Admin

Wow that pump sounds nasty. 

Are the motor bearings noisy?  If you think the rotor was catching sometimes if the four bolts are tightened unevenly it can cause that. 

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  • Root Admin

By the way I've  moved this topic to uk washing machine repair questions. 

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3 hours ago, Whitegoodshelp (Andy) said:

Wow that pump sounds nasty. 

Are the motor bearings noisy?  If you think the rotor was catching sometimes if the four bolts are tightened unevenly it can cause that. 

they are absolutely silent Andy. - you might have an Idea though about the bolts, I dont know if it was just me but I did in fact feel one of the bolts were more tightened than the other. 

what do you think about my idea of drilling some holes in the motor casing not only as ventilation holes for the motor coils etc but also to try taking away the resonance / hum?  - do you think it might work? 



 

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  • Root Admin

I‘d try the bolts first. I used to get motors that whined a lot and tightening the bolts  bit by bit usually found a sweet spot where the resonance stopped.
 

Sometimes tightening one a bit tighter than the rest did it, sometimes it was having them even. 

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13 minutes ago, Whitegoodshelp (Andy) said:

I‘d try the bolts first. I used to get motors that whined a lot and tightening the bolts  bit by bit usually found a sweet spot where the resonance stopped.
 

Sometimes tightening one a bit tighter than the rest did it, sometimes it was having them even. 


ah right thanks Andy - would you think inverter motors get hot in use? - I am so surprised that on this motor there are no ventilation holes whatsoever in the casing 

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  • Root Admin

Presumably not Andy. I would imagine the only place where heat is generated is the friction in the bearings, which are open to the air? 
 

On carbon brush motors heat is also generated by the brushes running on the commutator and small sparks but the brushless motor just rotates on the bearings. 

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12 minutes ago, Whitegoodshelp (Andy) said:

Presumably not Andy. I would imagine the only place where heat is generated is the friction in the bearings, which are open to the air? 
 

On carbon brush motors heat is also generated by the brushes running on the commutator and small sparks but the brushless motor just rotates on the bearings. 

ah right cheers thats good to know

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Motor all put back together and back in machine .... still works (which is a plus) - 

I put some grease inside all around the bearings (even though they are a sealed) and on the end of the shaft and drilled a few air holes in the casing for good measure 

hasn't made one iota of difference what I did ... well OK it's marginally a bit quieter - havent had it spinning at top speed so maybe that sounds better. . 

Goes without saying I have forfeited the 5 or 10 year warranty on the inverter motor Samsung supposedly gives you on the washing machine , but in worst cast scenario a Inverter motor for this machine you can get around €120 brand new so not too bad 


yeah that drain pump nasty , why do they have to have it running a lot as well when there is nothing to pump out - that makes it noisier too! 

 

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  • Root Admin

I didn't think drilling holes would help Andy, could even make it worse. To try and quieten resonance, or a rotor or armature catching, you need to adjust whilst motor is running. But that's  potentially dangerous.
 

I used to do it on a test rig in workshop by holding motor with large insulated pipe pliers and gradually tightening and loosening of the four bolts. 

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  • Root Admin

To be honest the noise in your first video sounds like the bearings to me. I used to get a lot of motor bearings that made a high pitched noise like that. 

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1 hour ago, Whitegoodshelp (Andy) said:

To be honest the noise in your first video sounds like the bearings to me. I used to get a lot of motor bearings that made a high pitched noise like that. 

Ah right. They seemed silent as anything  but yeah I mean thats when the motor was not spinning at high speed - machine is still nowhere near as noisy of a machine with carbon brushes on the motor so i will just leave as is now. 

I didnt see any TOC on the coils when I had it all apart I wonder what would happen in that situation if motor seized and wash still trying to turn on that motor then? would the coils just heat up and burn out I wonder of just burn out some component on the motor PCB?

 

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  • Root Admin

Yes to be fair, I would normally expect to be able to hear and feel if the bearings were dodgy, though maybe it's something that only occurs at high speed. I've even had cases where the bearing is slightly loose inside the motor frame and the outer bearing spins round under high speed.

Regarding the TOC on the field coil, is this it on the left?

field coil.jpg

 

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1 hour ago, Whitegoodshelp (Andy) said:

Yes to be fair, I would normally expect to be able to hear and feel if the bearings were dodgy, though maybe it's something that only occurs at high speed. I've even had cases where the bearing is slightly loose inside the motor frame and the outer bearing spins round under high speed.

Regarding the TOC on the field coil, is this it on the left?

field coil.jpg

 

Ah right I see - yes could be the TOC , never thought of that. 

in your experience with bearings do they ever 'wear in' over time and get quieter? , is that a possibility? - I have had the machine a year this February and its always made that noise , 'Whizz' noise I would call it. Never through washing, its ultra quiet then , but when weighing the clothes at the beginning of the wash and when speeding up and slowing down after spin . I sometimes think the noise is caused by some kind of interjection of like a noise from electronics going through the motor coils like some kind of servo or electroninc braking the motor to slow it down quicker when it needs to ... or something like that ... I wish i could explain it better but i can't . 

 

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  • Root Admin

Not really. If something was going to settle in, it is likely to be in the first several weeks. 

The kind of noise you describe could be caused if they put the motor in reverse to stop it quickly. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

could the different design of the armature affect the sound of the motor at all? 

The armature stack in the diagram picture is all metal and in reality the armature is white plastic with metal parts in it  :

image.thumb.png.c00ebcc6f35f25d937df6bfa26bae9a4.png

 

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  • Root Admin

Hello Andy. I wouldn't expect the rotor to make any noise at all (I think an armature is one with carbon brushes and copper segments). The only thing I could imagine being "wrong" with a rotor is it somehow being out of balance. That would cause a lot of vibration but not that kind of noise.

I hear 2 distinct noises coming from the motor. One of them sounds like bearings that have had a bit of water or WD-40 on them, which has partially stripped some of the grease inside. The other noise sounds like possibly the rotor could be catching on the inside of the stator. However, if the latter is the case then you should be able to see some forensic evidence of this on the inside of the stater or the outside of the rotor.

At the end of the day that motor appears to be running under some resistance. So if there is no evidence that it's catching anywhere it must be the bearings. When the motor stops it appears to come to an accelerated stop as opposed to freewheeling down.

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thanks Andy - a strange one . you could be right about the bearings maybe. If I spin the drum by hand i get the "weeeeeeee" sound , there is no marks on the stator or rotor either so thats all it can be maybe is the bearings. 

I doubt if I could get it (the motor) changed under warranty, plus I dare say the parts are covered under warranty but not the fitting/labour. - Buying a new motor got to cost well over 100 quid . I might just look out for either a secondhand motor and fit it myself or look for a samsung machine with an invertor motor where the drum bearings have gone or control panel gone or something and whip the motor out of that and see if its a quieter one . 
cheers. 

 

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  • Root Admin

If you can put up with that horrendous pump you could maybe put up with the motor though it could be just too much combined 😁

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46 minutes ago, Whitegoodshelp (Andy) said:

If you can put up with that horrendous pump you could maybe put up with the motor though it could be just too much combined 😁

Ah yes when the pump is going at the same time it drowns out the sound of the motor whine LOL 

have you ever come across a washing machine make with a near silent drain pump at all on your travels as an engineer? 

I was looking at a commercial washing machine the other day (expensive!)  and it said it had a gravity drain pump and sluice action whatever that means

 

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  • Root Admin

The pumps used to be very quiet in the 70s and 80s. Back then they were mini induction motors. But then came the pricing battle and the race to the bottom. 

They changed to a much cheaper vortex design and have if anything got noisier over time. 
 

I would imagine a gravity pump would be something that opened up and let the water just run out into a draining system underneath? 

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it might sound a bit OTT but i ordered another samsung inverter wash motor off a private seller on amazon - a used one it is only 50euro including postage , but for curiosity's sakes I wanted to see if another motor was just as noisy . Its off a Samsung Washer Dryer and my machine is just a washing machine but looks identical - looks same , inverter type, DC with 3 pins on the connector. will be intrigued to see if it makes the same noise in operation

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  • Root Admin
1 minute ago, andyr12345 said:

 

it might sound a bit OTT but i ordered another samsung inverter wash motor

 

Not for you it doesn't mate 😁 Let us know how you get on. 

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