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>>Ha ha that's a bit unfair  I couldn't have been more balanced<<

:o) - sorry, for a minute there I could imagine the kind of excuses my Miele 'engineer' might come out with - am sure that if Miele took you on as a 'change management consultant' you could whip them into shape in 3 months, Andy! (Interestingly, I looked at the GlassDoor employee comment site, and it sounds like the company might be in a bit of an upheaval at the moment strategy-wise, lots of outsourcing mentioned at the German end.)

>>Have you seen that the tubing from the fan right up to the heating element chamber have accumulated debris? I would have guessed that it would only accumulate in the metal heating element chamber.<<

I daren't take the top off the darn thing at the moment, in case the engineers shrieks "Guarantee violation! Guarantee violation!" at me.

However one really doughty owner has posted the following, which suggest that the issue is as you say i.e. with the fan box and the element, but not necessarily with the endless tubing connecting the two (he is talking about the wt945 model, but I assume the WT2780 might have the same arrangement):

https://www.fixya.com/support/t15664744-no_heat_when_drying

https://www.fixya.com/support/r4177912-miele_wt945_dryer_problems_stage_stage
https://www.fixya.com/support/r4177920-miele_wt945_dryer_problems_stage_1_fix
https://www.fixya.com/support/r4177928-miele_wt945_dryer_problems_stage_2_fix
https://www.fixya.com/support/r4177934-miele_wt945_dryer_problems_stage_3_4_fix

This is the key info, relating to the difficult-to-reach fan box at the bottom of the machine:

"The next stage is to attempt a cleanout of the fan box itself. Fortunately you can get to some of what is needed without dismounting the whole box (if you want to bite the bullet on this straight away, go to Stage 3).

Dismount the heater by undoing the two large bolts at the front holding it to the drum, and two Torx bolts at the rear. Although the heater is still attached to the flexible rubber outlet at the front, it will swing up and off to one side just enough to reveal an upward-facing hole at the rear – this is the air outlet from the fan box. Peer down into this hole and you will be astonished at the buildup of mummified fluff and goo – it’s similar to papier mache.

Draw up a comfortable chair, fix up a desk lamp to shine down the hole, and start unpicking the goo with a fine metal hook (a dentist-style hooked probe is ideal – Maplin do a good set). First clean out the hole, then probe deeper to clean out each fan blade. It’s fiddly and quite a long reach down the hole, but by no means impossible. Turn the motor manually to move on to the next blade, and every so often vacuum out the hole with a small nozzle to remove the pile of dislodged goo. Unfortunately the goo is too adherent to come out with the vacuum alone, without unpicking first."

Again, this all points to a major design flaw IMHO. When I finally get the Miele visit, I shall make sure to be hovering with phone cam.  Quite happy to go to Small Claims Court if they decide to get a*sey about honouring the guarantee - seems they always back down when faced with SCC.

Scratching my head about why all this gunge somehow goes back up the door vent, into the element box on the top of the machine, and then down into the fan box - if it is due to powder-rich condensation from the drum during a wash, then the bottom line is that they need to fit some sort of automatic flap over that particular orifice.  Would not expect Bosch, AEG etc. to necessarily spend the cash to do it, but for that £1000 premium I handed Miele, yes I would indeed expect it.

 

p.s. amazed at how many people mention the near impossibility of getting hold of Miele manuals - bit late now we are exiting the EU, but I would have thought that would be open to a complaint regarding restriction of competition?

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  • 1 month later...

Well, finally got a warranty repair on this (and it might be that the dryer system for the WT2780 is different from older models such as the WT945). Shall post details under a new title, so easier to find for anyone else pulling their hair out.

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And I also need to correct the guesswork in the latter part of this thread - at some point, after looking at another's user olde Miele, it appeared to be the case that the heater fan in his model was located in the bottom of the washer/dryer. Mistake - in the case of the WT2780 the heater fan is definitely on the top of the machine, though a duct connects this fan to something at the bottom of the machine, but not sure what....

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Thanks for that. I did think it was very strange to locate one there is it would be difficult to get enough power to circulate the hot air properly.

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  • 4 months later...

Sadly i think like many manufacturers Miele have cut costs and believed their own hype. My mum has a W520 premier washing machine decent machine but my good did we have Miele out to deal with a over washing problem (clothes look like they have been hit with a hammer) , in the end they just let the warranty run down and couldn't be bothered and we sadly accepted our fate. Still works but my mum Yerned for her old Bosch which took more water and washed much better so much so i actually bought her one but then the damn Bearings failed in that so back to the Miele.

My own policy is to buy an older but well built second hand machines as i think they are far better served ,mind you washer dryers are inherently faulty in design as they rely too much on a careful user which even then as can be seen from this thread doesn't result in success.

Miele are absolutely taking the biscuit regardless of their machines being superior its criminal they charge nearly x7 the price of others only for the basic build quality to be better. Buy cheap and replace every few years i would say plus the cheaper makes have things like splittable drums etc unlike many supposed high end ones like recent Bosch's etc.

 

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Hello. Yes I agree that Miele like every other manufacturer will have had to constantly be watching costs and making decisions based on keeping prices down, which inevitably will affect quality. I reckon if you compared a modern Miele washing machine with a Miele that was built 10 years or more you would find the new one inferior.

However I honestly don't believe that any other washing machine comes close to Miele in build quality, although I have noticed that there are a lot of parts on a Miele washing machine now that I can honestly say do not look any better quality than an average washing machine. Things like the belt, the pump, the water valves, the heating element looked no different when compared with anybody else's. I know because I have taken part in a Which? project where we stripped down about 12 brand spanking new washing machines and laid all the parts side-by-side. It was quite a disappointment to me. But when it comes to the big important parts such as the motor, the drum bearings and the main PCBs they all still looked to me like they are far superior to anybody else's.

I also agree about the pricing. But I have realised over the years that if you want any product that is 50% better made you will probably pay at least 200% more. Whatever you are looking at if you find the manufacturer that is dedicated to making their product superior in build quality if they come up with one that is twice as good it will probably be 6 times the price. I think this is in part due to the fact that they cannot sell in anywhere near the massive quantities that others do which brings prices down, but I'm pretty sure there is an element of - premium product equals premium prices.

A lot of people who are disappointed with a Miele express that they wish they'd bought a different brand but they are usually looking back fondly over previous brands and forget or do not realise that the latest version of their previous brand is also nowhere near as good as it used to be. I cannot imagine any washing machine that is better made than a Miele but that doesn't mean that they are as good as they used to be or should be for the money.

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1 hour ago, Whitegoodshelp (Andy) said:

>>I know because I have taken part in a Which? project where we stripped down about 12 brand spanking new washing machines and laid all the parts side-by-side. It was quite a disappointment to me.<<

 

Always like your honesty Andy, and reassuring to know that Which? use your services. Now, I always assumed that Miele got hyperbolic ratings because the ex-CEO was being bunged models for free, but now wondering if it was because you are such a Miele fan-boy!  ;o)

Depressing to hear about Miele economising on certain parts. Given their size, and the fact they have no shareholders, not sure what the excuse would be - they must be making money hand over fist, given lack of significant competitor for their niche customers. 

Also - and my main gripe - given they continue to waffle on about 'designed for 20 years' but only offer a fairly standard 2-year guarantee (usually - which is less than IKEA's!) it is not as if they will be losing money on warranty servicing either.

When it comes to our WT2780, I really love the washing side of it, and the drying is great also - but the enjoyment is lost when you know that there is this design fault which will end up with crud blocking the tubes and a £500 bill to sort.  Until they sort that, a separate washer and dryer is the only way out, IMHO.

The other unacceptable thing about Miele is the grossly inflated parts pricing and being tied to their engineers - no idea why EU don't clamp down on that. They've probably all been given Miele appliances too!!  ;o)

An elderly neighbour just rents her washer, which gets replaced around every 2-3 years. I wonder if that would be the way forward for a new manufacturer of quality appliances? The better they made them, the fewer the visits (especially if they made them internet-connected to report back sensor info) so could be a profitable.  Most people dread washers breaking down, so a Miele+ type model on rent might be attractive - the manufacturer could even design it in such a way that easily degraded visible parts - such as front fascia and control panel - were user-replaceable, giving the appearance of a 'new machine' to the renter without any material cost to the firm.

My creative idea for the day.

 

 

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Thanks. Yes it's literally because compared to normal washing machines they are still way out in front, even though they are not as good as they used to be. To be fair, if you take any brand of washing machine and compare it with the same brand of washing machine 10, 15 or 20 years or so back you'd also find a massive difference in quality. Hoover washing machines nowadays have a relatively poor reputation, especially from Which? reviews, but when I first started repairing them in 1976 they were excellent quality. 

I've been repairing washing machines since 1976, and as you can imagine I've seen and stripped down quite a few washing machines. The difference between Miele and the average washing machine used to be like the difference between the average car that most people drove and a Rolls-Royce. But as discussed earlier, this difference has now massively reduced. I can confirm that many of their parts, including the door, the cabinet, the paintwork, the drum bearings and seals etc are still at the very least 50% better quality and in some cases twice as good as most washing machines. The problem is that this is increasingly coming at a greater and greater price.

Speaking of cars it's even happened with cars. I have been given a lift in BMWs or Mercedes cars and have been amazed how similar they appear to be in build quality to a normal card like say afford. Things like the quality of the door and door handles and the faces inside. I am sure that many of the premium brand car manufacturers are now making cars that are only a certain percentage better than average but at a much greater price.

I also think that they are running a dangerous tactic of restricting who can repair their appliances and charging such in some cases seemingly ridiculous prices for spares because it has now reached the point where I keep hearing of Miele appliances that are nowhere near 20 years old and are beyond economic repair. I have argued this out with some people at Miele at great length in the past but they don't seem to be able to appreciate that as soon as people start to realise that a Miele appliance can be beyond economical repair at 5 years old if it needs a motor, pcb or drum bearings etc (admittedly less likely than on a "normal washing machine") then the main advantage of investing a lot extra up front is lost and it becomes more of a gamble.

I love Miele washing machines but I do have some concerns as described he are there downsides to buying Miele?

I've also long thought that renting Miele washing machine out would be a great business though I hadn't thought of Miele themselves doing it, which I like.

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Weird... I keep posting a reply but it never shows up!

Again...

    5 hours ago, Whitegoodshelp (Andy) said:

 

    I've also long thought that renting Miele washing machine out would be a great business though I hadn't thought of Miele themselves doing it, which I like.

 

 

 

If I see your face beaming out of a Miele magazine ad announcing this service, I'll want my cut...  ;o)

 

Yes, the cabinet (of our 8yr old machine at least) is as good as they make out, very tough. And good to know the bearings are well made.

 

The biggie for me is also the drum suspension, which obviously makes for absolutely zero bouncing due to heavy items (unlike our new AEG washer-dryer elsewhere, which has clearly not been engineered properly) and zero noise.  The pound-coin-on-its-side test is still impressive.

 

Interesting what you say about BMWs and Mercs - I think all of this has its origins in the 80's, when 'branding' took off as well as corporate greed. For years now I've told people that in many cases their £100 shirt was made in the same factory as the £5 jobbie at Primark, but people can't believe it.

 

What happened was that ACTUAL quality (that you could feel, and see) was replaced by the PERCEIVED quality and status value of the brand.  So execs pushed to see how far they could reduce production costs, without the brand value appearing to be hurt.  In most cases they were probably surprised to see just how low they could go - I know someone who works in the fashion industry and she says there are 'snob' brands out there who went downhill 20 years ago yet customers are only now realising.

 

I tend to believe that family companies - maybe through inertia rather than intention - often are the last to reduce quality, because they have more emotional ties to the brand. This may be the case with Miele who, I think, also continue to manufacture a lot of their kit in high-wage Germany rather than cynically closing factories and moving all production to a low-wage economy.

 

I do wonder why Miele don't have any competition from Asko or V-Zug over here (which I understand don't get sold here?) - complacency is always a bad sign with a company.

 

Not waving the Union Jack, but I would assume there are still some great engineers here in the UK, so maybe given the Brexit we are now facing, some firm could come up with a limited line of competing units to Miele, and thereby 'encourage' them not to treat us like a captive market.

 

Looking at the Ebac machines (awful name, even if founder is laudable in turning company into a trust) they seem to have plastic drums. Maybe if they took the product upmarket a bit (steel drum, suspension* etc.) they could ventue into Miele territory - they already have the 7yr warranty, which is enough to make me sit up (though hardly any retailers by the look of it?)

 

Actually given Mr Elliott is clearly a great role model and bright (left school at 15 and is now a benevolent millionaire) I'd love someone to set him the challenge of building a reliable washer-dryer. If he managed that, what with dwelling sizes getting smaller by the day, I reckon he'd have a market.

 

Especially of former Miele washer-dryer owners!!

 

 

 

*having seen a video of the Ebac, suspension and noise levels seem pretty good.

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