Miele Wp2789 Washer Dryer Nightmare

[tarragonrookie]

Apologies for too many words but some background is relevant:

Two years ago we made a huge mistake of replacing our Bosch washer/dryer with a Miele. For months we have been plagued by foreign matter/bits of debris in the machine after a cycle. We recently had to get a Miele engineer our as the dryer fan had seized. The removed part looked like it was 20 years old and seized solid. It beggars belief that Miele could design a machine that would run with a fan seized and not display an error message, that's what they have done.

Miele customer service and website is an embarrassment to them. Today, the machine works OK but we still get some sort of gritty residue after a wash which seems to have come down the dryer air return duct at the top front of drum. We eliminated limescale, zeolites, things left in pockets, dirty clothes etc, long ago. The machine is used regularly on a hot wash with bio powder and is clean.

The Miele engineer inferred that the fan problems was down to how we used the machine. I took this to be Miele diverting any blame against them or their product. I also note that the engineer did not use any sealants or lubricants when replacing the fan assy and bottom section of ducting from drum to fan.

My wife gets very upset with all the particles of grit and whatever is coming out of the machine as she takes so much care of it and does not let me near it. We do not have photos or have stripped it down to examine what this detritus could be.

Of all the washing machines we have had over the years, this is by far the worst and most expensive, by a country mile. I am convinced we have to scrap it and propose to take this up with Miele.

I am convinced this grit is not something that we are introducing to the machine. The repair did not replace the dryer heater element. Are there any experts that may have an idea of what this contamination could be and put us out of our misery please?

Thanks

PS: Our advice to anyone reading this is AVOID MIELE. All machines will go wrong at some point, but they will not have cost you the Miele premium you pay for thinking you have the best. The designed for 20 year advertising shows they have a sense of humour!

[Whitegoodshelp (Andy)]

If a dryer fan seized up a machine might still run, but the dryer heater should definitely stop working otherwise the whole machine would seriously overheat and possibly even catch fire. I too would expect some sort of recognition by the machine that the fan is not running. How have they inferred that the fan problems was down to how you used the machine?

[tarragonrookie]

The fan was seized and the heater cut out had activated. There is no indication on the display to indicate that anything was wrong, the dryer cycle would run for hours despite being defective. The inference by the Miele engineer was that maybe we had not carried out sufficient service washes and run the fluff removal program often. This grated a bit, as we always do this. As an engineer myself, I am dumfounded that someone would design something like this. as a fan of all things German this has knocked our confidence. Thank you and regards.

[Whitegoodshelp (Andy)]

Yes that would seem surprising that something as sophisticated as a Miele would not realise that the dryer is not heating up and just blindly carry on running. It's perfectly safe, even the cheapest appliances would have adequate safety cutouts for if the fan stops running, but I would definitely expect a Miele washer dryer to realise that the temperature was not rising and abort the drying program with an error code.

As frustrating as you might find this there is no doubt in my mind that Miele are still by far the most well-built and sophisticated appliances. They may not be perfect but they are still the best.

I would have thought that either the fan seized up through mechanical failure, or it seized up because it got jammed by fluff. If it was the latter I would expect the engineer to state that as a fact, an inference is pretty useless in such circumstances. It would be a surprise if the fan could be seized up through lack of service washes and fluff removal program although you would need to refer to the instruction manual to see how important these things are and if it is made clear that breakdowns and mechanical failure could be result of not carrying them out or not.

If you feel the fan failed due to mechanical failure than as a high-quality and expensive brand I would agree that it is not what should be expected. If Miele don't cover it under their guarantee you would have to take it up with whoever you bought it from under the sale of goods act.

[LymingtonWasher]

Hi, I just had to reply to your post - I have had the same problem but managed to resolve it...I very recently bought a used 3 yr old Miele washer dryer and was so excited - it was delivered and I ran the service wash - 95 degrees - to clean out the machine. Result - the bottom of the drum had lots of grit and sand in it - tried it again - same result.

I have since discovered that the grit is simply hard water deposits which probably shook loose when the machine was moved, when the high temperature and descaler had done their job and by the high spin I used to 'clear out the pipes' so to speak. I used the 'rinse out fluff' programme nearly 40 times and each time there was grit - sometimes less and sometimes more - eventually the grit had all been cleared from the machine. I occasionally get a smidgeon of grit when I run the rinse out fluff cycle now but only occasionally and very little appears.

The previous owners must have had extremely hard water as evidenced by the completely gummed up fabric softener dispenser.

I lived in rented accommodation for years and so had many types of washing machine and the Miele was far superior to anything else - I had a Miele dishwasher which was 36 years old and still going strong. When they go wrong the repairs are ridiculously expensive and I agree that Miele support is not what it once was. In the meantime though - they are marvellous and wash beautifully - no other brand comes near it in my experience.

One thing to be aware of though - if you book a service visit online then in the contract you are agreeing to accept either a Miele engineer - the genuine article - or a local repair service authorised by Miele - thus I will book a service by phone and ensure I am getting the genuine article - I once had a local repair man, authorised by Miele, who had never seen inside a washer dryer let alone done a course on how to repair one!!!

Hope this has been of some help and your enjoyment of your machine has not been too spoiled.

[tarragonrookie]

Hi, just to thank you for taking the trouble to provide a good response. The saga actually went further, in that we found heavy corrosion like deposits inside the dryer ducting, motor and heater element housing. Had Miele back for third time in four months and now all the dryer parts have been replaced. The machine is on a water softener circuit and all the usual sources of contamination were eliminated. We still do not know what the white gritty residue is that appears inside the drying ducts. I have put this problem on another forum and have not ruled out some reaction inside the alloy dryer parts to softened water. We now accept we should have never bought a washer/dryer. I am convinced this machine will be in the tip inside two years despite being a 2012 purchase. Subsequent learning is to avoid the washer/dryer which is a shame as our Bosch washer dryer was fantastic for 10 years. looking back the decision to include a drying facility was naive on our part. We have had three washing machine engineer visits in 2015, more than in my whole 61 year life.

Thanks again.

[Whitegoodshelp (Andy)]

If your machine is connected to a water softener system that softens the water I wonder if it could be somehow related to your problem. Miele definitely advise not to connect to a softened water supply, but I would have thought it depends how much the water is softened. If it only softens it to normal levels I can't see how that would be an issue but maybe the artificially softened water causes problems? Basically, if the water is too soft it will cause excessive soap suds, this can result in people reducing the amount of detergent, which in turn can stop the detergent properly protecting against limescale. However, the irony is that if the water is too soft there shouldn't be any limescale.

[jayj]

(Adding to this thread as it is detailed and comes up when googling)

Had exactly same issue with an 8.5 yr old WT 2780 Miele washer/dryer. Grey, grungey, gritty, sandy type debris appears every so often at the end of a wash cycle - collecting on top of glass porthole, inside what are maybe rubber hot air vents around inside of door, and all over clothes (necessitating endless rinse-out-fluff cycles and further clothes rinses.

Hard to believe it is limescale - we have used Miele products (liquid, powder) exclusively in order to avoid any service engineer accusing us of neglecting the machine, always used the rinse-out-fluff routine after any drying cycle and regularly use the Miele descaling and cleaning products. The machine is actually little used, on average once a week and a mix of 40/60 degree washes.

We've been trying to track down the cause of this intermittent pollution - so far we think it only happens when using liquid detergent at 40 degrees, but could be wrong. We did wonder if there was some issue with Miele liquid detergents having a limited shelf life and turning into something odd when used in the machine, so we've just thrown away any half-empty bottles and ordered new ones.

Any ideas? I'll attach a photo to show just how pervasive this debris is.

Incidentally the dryer/steam heating element appeared to have failed some time back, as suddenly there was no hot air for drying/steaming (and, as with other users, absolutely no error code shown).  Our last Miele appliance service visit left us with little confidence about engineer training in this country at least (or maybe we were just unlucky here), so we haven't bothered to get it fixed as we seldom used the drying feature.

(I suppose it might just need the lid off and a black button reset, but on the other hand that would indicate that a safety 'over-heat' had happened, which is hard to understand given the careful rinse-out-fluff routines and descaling that has taken place).

 

Doubt we'd go with Miele for washer-dryers again (the price premium for washer-dryers as opposed to washers being far too greedy compared to other manufacturers, and the machines appearing to be too finicky), but as a matter of interest does anyone know if Miele have changed/improved the workings of the dryer bit in their washer-dryers?

Thanks

 

for googling purposes: Miele WT2780 washer dryer washer-dryer grit grey grunge sand debris stain waschtrockner fehler lave-linge séchant taches

[Ray Collington]

Sadly this machine had to go in the end due to unprecedented unreliability. We never got to the bottom of all the white residue within the warm air ducting system. Our machine first failed at 18 months. The fan was seized (no error codes showing)  and ducting had the appearance of being subjected to unbelievable corrosive factors. It failed for the fourth and final time this Christmas by tripping the mains electricity RCD as we sat down to a family meal. This was the final straw for having this expensive machine in our lives. Manufacturer service is poor in UK with nearly a three week wait for an engineer. The other issue is this machine weighs 100kgs making it difficult to slide out for maintenance. We've gone back to a Bosch as they've always served us well and I like being able to see the online parts lists and order spares. 

Having this product leave our lives was a cathartic moment and we won't be going back anytime soon.

[jayj]

First of all, all credit to you for even being able to write the 'M****' word after all you have been through. I fell across the Trustpilot page for Miele Great Britain, and some of the stories would make your hair curl. Miele UK (at least - the rest of the world Mieles don't fare much better) is clearly dysfunctional, with the staff briefed to use any excuse whatsoever to avoid doing the decent thing by customers.

Using Mr Spock type logic regarding the white residue, it surely can only be due to one of three things - a) limescale (not in our case, due to our religious usage of descaling materials), b) detergent (unlikely, since I can't visualise their ligquids somehow becoming sand) or c) deterioration of some inner component - the most likely scenario.

One of the few intelligent things I have done in my life is to spend the discount obtained from Comet (RIP) on a 10 year extended warranty, so - in theory - I can get a Miele 'engineer' out to look at both the failed dryer and the residue. I say 'in theory' because apparently the Miele service dept. routinely pretend they can't find the 10-yr guarantee registrations on their computer system. Fortunately I am slightly OCD, so have the original papers filed away.

One of my hobbies is management psychology, and I have to admit I find the whole Miele thing absolutely fascinating. Looking through the saner commentators on trustpilot.com, it is clear that many of the newer Miele products (especially ironing and coffee machine-related) are clearly faulty by design, which begs the question... why? Given the outrageous prices charged by Miele for their kit, they can clearly afford both the best in materials and the best engineers.

I myself had a £1000 fridge-freezer pack up at just over 2 years old - again, fortunately, I had an extended warranty so they grudgingly replaced. But the fault existed from the outset (if you turn on a Miele/Liebherr fridge-freezer and hear the occasional 'cracking' noise - call them out immediately, it means your unit is one of the 1-2% destined to fail).

And clearly, pre maybe year 2000, their kit did indeed last an eternity.  I wonder therefore if it is not the usual case of some of a Miele Jnr. having headed off for to study for some U.S. MBA, only to return to the family fold, Excel spreadsheet in hand, to point out to Miele snr. how 'inefficient' the company has been and how they could easily improve their bottom line. Umm, by going for the lowest common denominator and reducing costs left, right and centre.

This seemed to be a common fate for many of Europe's best loved companies - Omega and Lindt, to name but two.

The annoying thing is that the WT2780 washes really well, and is able to wash just a single jumper or pair of jeans - whereas most of its peers would be bouncing around the kitchen.  Once out of warranty, I would be willing to employ a non-Miele engineer to keep it going another few years - assuming I can find one.

I'll let you know how the saga continues...

Thanks again

[Whitegoodshelp (Andy)]

12 hours ago, jayj said:

(if you turn on a Miele/Liebherr fridge-freezer and hear the occasional 'cracking' noise - call them out immediately, it means your unit is one of the 1-2% destined to fail).

Hi there, what fault is that I wonder? Just that I know that occasional cracking noises on fridges and freezers is quite normal these days. It usually mentions them in the instruction manual. It is caused when the plastic backing sticks to the ice behind it and then as the appliance goes into automatic defrost as it defrosts you get these cracking noises. They can be quite loud but they don't indicate a fault normally.

[jayj]

Hi Andy, and thanks for continuing to keep this site going - very handy

Let me see if I can find the research I did on this on my PC.... [10 minutes later] sorry can't find the actual review which mentioned this.

 

However I do remember the details - the customer had the same issue as me (Miele FF conked at 2.5 years) and a decent Miele repair guy had said that they estimated about 1-2% of the FFs came out of the (Liebeherr?) factory with this as a potential inherent defect (something to do with the gas and tubing) and that the main way to recognise a faulty unit was the type of noise coming from the rear.  Personally I always leave 24 hours before switching on any fridge unit after moving, so not due to that!

Apologies, I might have been too vague in saying that a 'cracking' noise was a definite indicator - as you say, even the replacement model I was given (and which has worked fine for 7.5 years) makes a cracking sound now and then.  Looking back, the noise from the first, faulty model was much louder and sort-of-different.

I think the review I noticed was actually left on the Which? website - interestingly Which? took the unilateral decision to stop allowing people to comment on Product Review pages, probably because so many (coherent) reviews were posted contradicting their glowing reviews (including Which? members who pay almost a £10 a month for their sub).  Which? had reviewed lots of Miele FFs and given them Best Buy status a few years back - then all of a sudden they seemed to stop reviewing the brand range, which seemed odd. At the moment there are only 1-2 listed.

As much as, like you, I love my Miele for its washing performance and solid feel, if you haven't gone over and looked at the Miele Great Britain pages on Trustpilot, worth doing - in between the usual unrealistic ranters there is quite a fascinating thread of customer experiences!

(For balance, have to say my fairly basic Miele dishwasher has worked faultlessly for almost 10 years, as has my 15 year old Miele vacuum with powered head).

Wonder if Miele allow customer visits to their washing machine factories these days? Always enjoyable to see how things are made.

 

[Whitegoodshelp (Andy)]

Thanks for the clarification Jayj. Ironically the Miele fridges aren't made by Miele at all although the Liebeherr brand are supposed to be just as excellent. It's strange that Miele seem to be taking such a bashing on trust pilot, although I haven't looked yet myself. Someone else contacted me recently saying how John Lewis also had terrible reviews on there. It seems very strange that two of the most high profile brands known for quality and excellence have such bad reviews. So either they have both fallen into a sad decline, or maybe people are much more likely to complain if something goes wrong with a premium product where everyone is crowing about how good they are and they have paid a lot of money out as opposed to people via cheap washing machine for 2 or £300 who have much lower expectations.

 

[jayj]

John Lewis bashing -  very likely due to foolish decisions like outsourcing customer service centres to Asia to save a few bucks, and moving shop assistants to be grouped at either end of the floor, resulting in shoppers practically being on their knees by the time they get to pay!

Miele bashing - not so sure about that. Given that Miele are seen as 'the poshest appliance choice' (in the absence of V-Zug I guess), a lot of purchasers will be of the 'hubby is loaded and we change our kitchen every other year just to avoid boredom' variety. If an appliance breaks down I guess they just leave it to the secretary, maid or cleaner to deal with the 'tradesmen'.  So, they probably aren't even aware that the maid has been taking the washing down to the laundrette for 4 weeks whilst waiting for Miele service dept. to get their act together...

The people who bother to write reviews concerning serious faults will be people like my family - who aren't necessarily made of money but who are willing to pay extra for perceived quality and longevity. Which is why the Miele routine of 'designed to last 20 years... but, er,  we'll only guarantee for 2' is particuarly galling.

Definitely take a moment to read the Trustpilot stuff - I thought having a Miele washer/dryer was a cross to bear, until I heard about the Coffee Machines !

[jayj]

Getting back to our wonderful WT2780 - shades of deja vu as yet again I go traipsing around the internet for clues...

This thread is particularly interesting, as the guy clearly has techical nouse regarding the drying issue of his Miele model (4 web pages via link) -

https://www.fixya.com/support/t1615585-miele_wt945_washer_dryer

And here they give photos of the dubious dryer unit itself:

https://www.fixya.com/support/t15664744-no_heat_when_drying

What I think I've learned so far is:

- the element for the dryer unit sits in a metal box above the drum - I assume either air passes over (drying) or a mix of air and water passes through (for the ritzy 'steam' function

- this element box may not be part of the 'rinse out fluff' and/or able to be descaled* - fluff definitely collects there causing overheating (and the need for initally a reset, but eventually a manual delousing).

- the fan unit is positioned at the bottom of the machine, and is the most difficult item in the machine to access and take apart (according to at least one Miele engineer, resulting in Miele only offering to replace the entire unit (at £400), though a competent amateur is able to take apart and clean (with time and effort).

- the fan unit may have some inherent design fault, as part of the gubbins frequently gums up and has to be meticulously cleaned and re-assembled periodically

- the rinse out fluff feature fails to work properly as designed, leading to people having to use long pincers to jiggle and extract gungey fluff which has turned to something ghastly and practically immovable over time

- one German owner commented that when he took the fan unit apart, he was appalled at the cheap quality of the electronics (he could have been a bit of an exaggeration merchant)

- one (satisfied) German owner commented that the machine was great, but had two key flaws - a) that it broke down if you did not use Rinse-Out-Fluff, and b) that it broke down if you did not use the drying feature every so often (interesting, as obviously we haven't been able to recently)

 

*the comment about the descaling/rinsing of the element box, or absence of, is what really intrigues me. As mentioned, we do use the descaler and cleaner as advised - but I am now wondering how this stuff is routed within the machine. Basically the  instructions are just 'throw the powder in the drum and run at 60+ degrees'.  Not mechanically minded, but I assume that this does indeed clean the drum and main element (as it sloshes around) and does indeed clean the hoses leading down to the pump and outlet (as the powder circulates and eventually disappears via the outlet).

But the big question is... does the powder ever make it in liquid form to the element box on the top of the drum? - if the steam function does involve water being passed over the element there (as opposed to the main element in the machine), then obviously descaling is required there.

Ditto, does the cleaning powder make it around the air pipes leading to the top element box? I assume not, but given that the technically gifted user has photos to show the way fluff accumulates there despite  frequent Rinse Out Fluffs...

I'm determined not to go to my grave without finding the answer to these fascinating mysteries...  mainly because if Miele have indeed designed a £1500-£2500 machine in such a way that fluff-clogging is inevitable even if users follow their advice, and fan-gumming and eventual failure and a £400 bill is also inevitable, then...

... the 'designed for 20 year lifespan' is clearly a load of old c*bblers, as far as WT models are concerned, and consequently innocent little ole' customer such as yours truly and others are due either a totally free overhaul or ideally a brand spanking new machine and 10yr warranty to go with it (I can dream).

 

But what we really need is some decent anonymous Miele engineer to come on here and spill the beans (or correct the assumptions of myself and others). C'mon, surely there must be at least one in the UK who knows the washer/dryers inside out and is willing to tell all?!

(failing that, does anyone have a PDF manual for people to pore over?)

p.s. having had washer-dryers since they first came out, I remember our first was an Indesit - and taking the top off, there seemed to be what looked like an industrial steel hairdryer lying flat on the top. Not an elegant solution, and there was often fluff in the usual filter down below which needed scooping out every other week, but on the other hand it flaming well worked more reliably than this precious Miele! (suggesting that for washer-dryers at least, Italian smarts beat German smarts).

[jayj]

just for google purposes, adding this bit of reference - even though our WT2780 has not shown this info (many other users with the same symptoms have had this code)

 

Technical fault code 55 error

 

- as mentioned, in our case the Miele washer/dryer does not display any code, even though the dryer heating element appears to be stone cold (or else the fan in the unit below is not pumping air over the element - either way, no drying).

 

Which reminds me - I might be being a bit paranoid, but to my untrained eye the (very expensive to replace) PCB circuit boards seem surprisingly unprotected i.e. just bolted to the side of the machine, with no external protection. Surely £5 of my £1500 could have been used to pay for a waterproof jacket!

[Whitegoodshelp (Andy)]

19 hours ago, jayj said:

Definitely take a moment to read the Trustpilot stuff

Oh Dear. That's quite shocking, however, I also checked out six other well-known washing machine brands and they are all exactly the same. Two stars, one star, "appalling service", "worst company in the world", "disgusting" etc etc. the exact same kind of complaints and reviews are on all of the washing machine factory as trust pilot pages. I can also see that at least some of the complaints may well have an alternative side.  It seems that trust pilot is used mostly to complain, which sadly gives a very skewered and unreliable view of companies. If you have just one percent of customers that are very dissatisfied then you get hundreds or even thousands of bad reviews, whereas the other 99% rarely feel it necessary to add a positive review.

Having said that I would still expect Miele to be much better than that. Having to wait two or three weeks for an appointment and wait weeks for parts to be ordered on products that are supposedly extremely reliable can only mean that they probably don't have enough engineers or parts in stock. That is definitely not conducive to good customer service on a premium product. Premium products (and some of the prices of the Miele products mentioned are eye-watering expensive) should definitely come with exceptional customer service, which means fast repairs. I can only conclude that Miele may be struggling if they cannot afford to keep up a high quality after sales service.

[Whitegoodshelp (Andy)]

19 hours ago, jayj said:

*the comment about the descaling/rinsing of the element box, or absence of, is what really intrigues me. As mentioned, we do use the descaler and cleaner as advised - but I am now wondering how this stuff is routed within the machine. Basically the  instructions are just 'throw the powder in the drum and run at 60+ degrees'.  Not mechanically minded, but I assume that this does indeed clean the drum and main element (as it sloshes around) and does indeed clean the hoses leading down to the pump and outlet (as the powder circulates and eventually disappears via the outlet).

Descaling the washing machine, or doing a maintenance wash by putting it on a boil wash with detergent and no laundry is only to maintain the washing machine. The washer dryer parts on top of the washing machines outer drum are not affected at all by any maintenance wash. No water gets there at all. However, if there is a specific descaling cycle for the dryer then you should definitely do that as regularly as instructed.

It appears that all washer dryers seem to suffer from the same problems in that an excess of fluff and gunge builds up inside the dryer heating and fan chambers. The only thing that I can suggest is that I believe (as I mentioned earlier) that you must always ensure that you do not overload the dryer, and always remember that you can wash more laundry than you can tumble dry. So never allow it to do a wash cycle and then go straight into tumble dry cycle unless it is 1/2 load that you know the dryer can cope with.

I believe that if the dryer cycle has too much laundry inside it cannot cope and creates a very steamy and wet atmosphere. This causes fluff and debris to stick to the inside of the heating element chamber and the fan chamber. It could well be that this is the sole cause of these troubles, or it could be that it is only a partial cause. It could even potentially not really the cause at all and the main cause is just that washer dryers are badly designed and an impractical concept and probably should never be made.

[Whitegoodshelp (Andy)]

12 minutes ago, Whitegoodshelp (Andy) said:

I believe that if the dryer cycle has too much laundry inside it cannot cope and creates a very steamy and wet atmosphere. This causes fluff and debris to stick to the inside of the heating element chamber and the fan chamber. It could well be that this is the sole cause of these troubles, or it could be that it is only a partial cause. It could even potentially not really the cause at all and the main cause is just that washer dryers are badly designed and an impractical concept and probably should never be made.

Having said all that check out the photos in this thread about a Bosch washer dryer. Photos published halfway through the thread clearly show a very similar issue where the heating element compartment and fan chamber or cake tin gunge and what looks like limescale and soap powder.. Water is not supposed to get anywhere near these parts. These are separate add-on parts to enable the otherwise normal washing machine to tumble dry. However the photos clearly show that it is very wet inside there and there is an accumulation of gunge and even what looks like limescale.

So either somehow water is getting up there when it shouldn't. The only place it could get is up through the vent built into the door seal. This is where the fan from the dryer blows hot air into the drum. However it should be impossible for water to get up there because if you examine it in your own washing machine it's quite high up and well away from water levels. It could be that hot steam which is containing dissolved soap powder is getting up there during washes and then as it cools down condensing into water and depositing the limescale and soap powder.

I myself have seen many cases where when I take off the heating element cover for the dryer it is wet inside and covered in deposits and fluff. As it happens in all washer dryers I've ever seen I can only conclude it is possibly a design flaw.  

 

[Ray Collington]

Thanks Andy

Good summary and considered opinion, I fully agree with you. I wish I knew this when my wife was singing the virtues of these machines and we made the mistake of buying one. No more washer/dryers for me.

Thank you very much.

[jayj]

Hi again,

>>I also checked out six other well-known washing machine brands and they are all exactly the same. Two stars, one star, "<< yeah, think you are right there. If I hadn't been so exhausted reading through every single Miele entry, I had intended to do the same! (Ironically, one of the few companies to get 3+ stars is.. Indesit, i.e. el cheapo)

I agree about the reviews being skewed to people who complain (as they are more likely to vent their feelings than satisfied people) - shame the National Appliance Federation or whatever it is called does not mandate an independent email survey of registered customers at the 2 year stage, would be very handy,

I do think that Miele should be held to higher standards however - first of all, many of the lousy repairs cited with other manufacturers will have been carried out by third party engineers - unlike Miele, where you are more or less forced to use their guys/gals.  If I remember rightly, they justify this along the lines of 'our machines are so advanced, it would not make sense to let possibly untrained engineers repair them'. Yeah, right - if I do have to pay for a repair, I'll be hunting out a competent independent - assuming they can get hold of manuals and parts.

Talking of parts, have you checked out the latest prices? Looking at espares, it looks like the following:

Washing Machine Drain Pump = £114
Washing Machine Door Hinge = £68
Heater element = Washing Machine Heater Element - 2650W = £104
Washing Machine Outer Door Frame = £207
etc. etc.

Could be wrong, but looking quickly over e.g. AEG prices (so, mid-range) they are generally 50% of the price or less. Think you have also pointed this out in past articles.

As you probably noticed from the Miele reviews (after weeding out the ones from the ignorant whiners) the story seems to be: The machine failed - we called Miele - they argued the toss about the warranty, if there was one - they then took ages to send their repair guy/gal, often cancelling at the last minute - the first repair often did not work - and often if they did offer to repair out of warranty, the parts cost was so astronomical we were left thinking better to junk and replace.

I wish I had access to the cost spreadsheets for Miele but in the absence of those, my (totally uneducated) guess would be this -  I can get a nice-enough looking Beko washer-dryer WDA914401W for £422, with a Best Buy rating from the blessed Which?. Now, clearly the Miele has a better outer drum (steel - so lasts far longer and is impervious to objects making holes in it), plus a better external finish (really tough enamel). I would guess that unlike my Miele, the Beko suspension etc. could not deal with just a single pair of jeans (rapidly becoming my number one reason for buying a Miele).  Does it have better electronics, which are better protected? From what I have seen, unlikely (and a detailed review on the German site made it clear that the workings of the newer Miele control panels are totally counter-intuitive).

But of course the Miele model is, at cheapest, £1700 - i.e. £1278 dearer.... and (total guess) I assume that the steel outer drum and the nice enamel exterior and even the better suspension should only add at max £150 in construction cost. Let's be charitable and say that leaves + £1000 in extra cost price.

At £422, if the dryer seizes up etc. after 2 years (remember, our Miele is showing key faults at 8.5 years of very low usage, so really just 2-3 years normal usage), then I have a fairly easy choice - chuck the Beko and replace, or go to Joe/Joanna round the corner and let them do a repair, probably max £150.

My gripe about Miele (echoed by others) is that they claim absolute superiority in quality and design, and that darned 'Built for 20 years - but we only guarantee for 2 years' tripe.  I do believe their washing machines (in the past at least) qualified for this statement, and also their hoovers and probably their dishwashers too.  As for their other appliances - and especially their washer dryers - not so sure.

 

 

[jayj]

8 hours ago, Whitegoodshelp (Andy) said:

Descaling the washing machine, or doing a maintenance wash by putting it on a boil wash with detergent and no laundry is only to maintain the washing machine. The washer dryer parts on top of the washing machines outer drum are not affected at all by any maintenance wash. No water gets there at all. However, if there is a specific descaling cycle for the dryer then you should definitely do that as regularly as instructed.

It appears that all washer dryers seem to suffer from the same problems in that an excess of fluff and gunge builds up inside the dryer heating and fan chambers. The only thing that I can suggest is that I believe (as I mentioned earlier) that you must always ensure that you do not overload the dryer, and always remember that you can wash more laundry than you can tumble dry. So never allow it to do a wash cycle and then go straight into tumble dry cycle unless it is 1/2 load that you know the dryer can cope with.

I believe that if the dryer cycle has too much laundry inside it cannot cope and creates a very steamy and wet atmosphere. This causes fluff and debris to stick to the inside of the heating element chamber and the fan chamber. It could well be that this is the sole cause of these troubles, or it could be that it is only a partial cause. It could even potentially not really the cause at all and the main cause is just that washer dryers are badly designed and an impractical concept and probably should never be made.

Grrrr.... Andy, I can almost visualise you in a Miele engineer's uniform!!!  ;o)   - believe me, unless you are Rothschild, if you have just forked out for a Miele washer-dryer you treat it better than your own mother. Yes, I have indeed frequently done the boil wash routine (mainly because I assume that is the best way to degunk the usual pipes). No, I never overload the dryer in fact if it usually has just one towel or a mix of undies, knickers and socks in it - and then only after they have had a bit of a dry on the line.

To be brutally frank, I would assume ANY washer-dryer would inherently have a wet and steamy atmosphere - so again, I think we are making excuses for Miele where they don't deserve it. Remember that £1000 price premium I paid for? - you're telling me that they couldn't have forked out £30 for an 'over steamy sensor and alarm system'. ???!!!!

Seriously, at the very least Miele clearly don't stress test their own machines. If I was Mr Miele (assuming he ever comes into work rather than just sit at home counting his billions) I would be insisting on a test rig involving +30% over-load of a drying cycle, and building in the electronic smarts to deal with that ( "Beep! Beep! - condensation overload in main drum, please remove items and restart").

 

[jayj]

Hi Andy - thanks for the Bosch Bosch WKD28351GB info, very interesting indeed - and it looks like you could be right, that this issue could affect most washer-dryer units.

 

However... as I found out from the Fixya competent amateur DIY owners, the whole issue with the darn Miele design is that the fan unit is not on top (as it seems to be on the Bosch and indeed my ancient Indesit) but.... buried deep at the bottom of the machine, so buried in fact that Miele have a policy of not opening and repairing but only replacing (at £400) - and I assume that the pipes between the fan and the element are equally gunged, in fact that is what the Fixya guys said from memory.

Not wanting to make some sort of Nuremburg trial here, but my logic (until someone proves otherwise) suggests this:

1) washer-dryer element and fan systems can inherently gum up (though I NEVER had to get a repair for my 10 year old Indesit or 15 year Zanussi, and they had about 4x the usage of my precious Miele)

2) if this happens, on most machines it is easy to undo and clear as the fan and element are on the top of the machine, or - worst case scenario - it is a case of replacing the fan and/or element (and a quick check of "Indesit Washing Machine Blower Fan Motor" prices comes in at just £25).

3) However those wonderful Immer Besser Engineers at Miele have decided that the best place to put the dryer fan is...

...in the least accessible part of the machine, together with the a long length of gungeable tubing (oh, and with an absence of sensors so that many people don't even get an error code when the dryer system croaks) , so that a user faced with this inherent defect (which can happen after as little as 2 years of normal use) is immediately faced with a bill of at least £400. Er, every couple of years or so.

Again, if a Miele expert can explain why my detective work is defective, I would welcome it (show me the exploded parts diagram as proof though!) - mainly because it pains even me to think that a German engineering company such as Miele could be so dim as to design a washer-dryer in this way.

As it stands however, from what I've learned here (thanks) and elsewhere, this does seem to be the likely scenario.  And I would love to know if their latest models use the same system, as I would feel it my duty to warn all those potential purchasers of the £2500 models!!!!)

p.s. at the risk of over-egging the pudding, the Fixya people also suggested some inherent issue with the fan workings as well, as if the rest of this saga was not enough.

[Whitegoodshelp (Andy)]

12 hours ago, jayj said:

Grrrr.... Andy, I can almost visualise you in a Miele engineer's uniform!!!  ;o)  

Ha ha that's a bit unfair  I couldn't have been more balanced, I said, ". It could well be that this is the sole cause of these troubles, or it could be that it is only a partial cause. It could even potentially not really the cause at all and the main cause is just that washer dryers are badly designed and an impractical concept and probably should never be made."

[Whitegoodshelp (Andy)]

11 hours ago, jayj said:

However those wonderful Immer Besser Engineers at Miele have decided that the best place to put the dryer fan is...

...in the least accessible part of the machine, together with the a long length of gungeable tubing

Yes I think it is a very strange place to put a dryer fan. The main problem I see is that it would need to be a lot more powerful than normal to be able to force the air over the element and down into the drum effectively. Have you seen that the tubing from the fan right up to the heating element chamber have accumulated debris? I would have guessed that it would only accumulate in the metal heating element chamber.