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Tony2351

Fixed drain pump now machine won't come on.

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OK Apologies this is a re-post as I'm new and hadn't quite got the hang of it the first time. Seemed filled in my name as the topic.

Checked everywhere. Can't find problem described, let alone a solution.

Switch on - On/off light comes on.

Close door - door light comes on.

Nothing else happens. No program lights. No start/pause lights etc.

No response to pressing program buttons.

Switch off, door remains locked. Releases after about 5-10 minutes.

How it started:

Rattling noise as machine drained. Skipped through wash cycle and only problem was noise when draining. Everything else fine.  Checked drain pump and found loose impeller in drain pump. Cleaned pump reattached impeller. Everything seemed fine. But machine won't move past door closed moment.

Couple of suggestions found on the web: 

As the door closing seems to be connected with completing the circuit to the rest of the machine it's possible something in the door lock may have come out of alignment when putting the machine on its side for the drain pump fix.

Or that it needs resetting, but I can't find and information on how to do this.

Any suggestions welcome.

 

Model

Zanussi Aquacycle 1400

FLE1416W

Edited by Tony2351
Missing information

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Hi. If the fault only occurred directly after your repair it has to be related to something you did or disturbed, or a million to one coincidence. If the door lock is locking it suggests it's working OK though theoretically it could be not passing power to the rest of the machine. It's difficult to suggest anything other than to retrace your steps and ensure all connections are OK to the pump and motor and pcb etc.

I have a help guide here but it's only quite general. It starts assuming it's totally dead but moves on to if the washer is dead but lights are on. It also mentions the door lock Washing Machine Won’t Start (dead)


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Hi Andy,

Thank you so much for replying. 

Yes, I'm pretty sure it's the Murphy's law part about fixing one thing and breaking a few others in the process. 

It was your own article that I found the suggestion that it could be the door lock.  If that's your first thought investigating it will be my starting point. Tricky thing is that to access it I have to remove the door seal. That means removing the clasp that holds it to the surround. In videos that's a wire ring but in my machine it's plastic and looks like it will break or be impossible the re-fix.  Do you know if there's a replacement to be bought without buying a whole replacement seal?    

Checking if power is getting to the PCB or elsewhere is a bit tricky as I've no service manual.

You mention retracing my steps. Regarding that, if the electrical connections to the pump had come loose during the fix would that stop power going to the rest of the machine? NB - the door release works. Unlocks after a few minutes.

Again, thanks for replying.

Tony

 

 

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On some washing machines if the motor is open circuit (or possibly motor plug not connected properly) the whole machine stops working apart from the lights. Not sure if applicable to yours but worth checking. If the door lock is locking it seems unlikely to be the fault but can't rule it out totally. Apart from checking pump isn't open circuit and is connected OK it's hard to think of anything else to check yourself. 


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The only lights working are the on/off button light and the door light.  The program lights don't light up when you press the program buttons nor does the start/pause button.   They are all dead.

All this was working normally before I fixed the drain pump.

Would you suggest checking pump first or door lock first?

I was thinking door lock because of what you said in the article - that the door lock has to be working properly to send power to the rest of the circuit.

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Check pump and all connections anywhere near where you worked 


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hello Tony - agree with all what Andy has told you. But i just thought I might add another tip that worked for me once on a washing machine when it acted similar to yours when I replaced  a pump, I mean it might not work but it might be worth a try, its not going to cost you anything to try but its this :

Turn off machine , open up the door,  fill up the drum to the bottom of the door gasket with clean fresh water, by means of hosepipe or jugs/bucket of water - close door , turn machine on .. and if possible (IE if it lets you) select 'drain' cycle or if you havent got drain cycle on your washing machine choose 'spin' cycle and low spin of 400rpm or 'no spin' and let it finish its cycle. When I done this it was almost like it 'reset' my washing machine and it worked fine after that. I dont know how but I am predicting putting some water in the drum must have sent some pressure/air up to the water level/pressure sensor switch in the machine and started everything else working as it should. - Maybe worth a try until you condemn it? - Good Luck...

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Hi andyr12345,

Thanks for the suggestion. I'm going to have a go at both suggestions tomorrow. Couldn't today - got busy.  

The machine is actually dead, apart from the on/off switch being lit and the door light being on. No program lights come on and there's no response when I press the program buttons.  Was yours dead as well and filling it up as you suggested tripped something and the rest of the machine came alive and the programs became accessible?

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11 minutes ago, Tony2351 said:

Hi andyr12345,

Thanks for the suggestion. I'm going to have a go at both suggestions tomorrow. Couldn't today - got busy.  

The machine is actually dead, apart from the on/off switch being lit and the door light being on. No program lights come on and there's no response when I press the program buttons.  Was yours dead as well and filling it up as you suggested tripped something and the rest of the machine came alive and the programs became accessible?

Yes, Tony I think from memory I couldnt select any cycles - it was almost like when I put the water in the drum it must have closed the contacts on the pressure switch , then 'knew' it had water in the drum and then I could select drain and then everything was ok after that cycle completed the machine worked as it should. It was a hotpoint machine tho  and yours is a Zannusi yep? - well its worth a try, if you cannot select drain still afterwards I am afraid you will have to drain out the water manually though, but its a small inconvenience, if it does come to life though once it senses water in the drum it might just come to life and let you select drain or spin and then I reckon you will be OK. 


 

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Hi andyr12345,

Well, that does sound promising. I will give that a go first thing tomorrow. Draining will be a pain if it doesn't work but like you say, it's worth a try.

 

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Hi Andy and andyr12345,

 

Tried both suggestions, had a lot of hope, but no luck. Still the same. 

Question for Andy, about the motor connection you mentioned. Do you mean the pump motor or the drum motor?  Didn't check the drum motor - should I? The pump motor was fine - connections tight and the right way around.  Didn't check it electrically though.

I took the door lock off and checked it. I even took it apart. Can't see anything wrong but then I don't know what I'm looking for.  Interestingly there was a wheel with notches on that was connected to a coil with a bar through it.  Move the bar and the wheel turns and lifts a lever that connects to the b-metal strip completing a circuit. Underneath the metal strip is some sort of coil, which I imagine is the heater.  I would assume things work in reverse to my description.  In  other words the coil heats and moved the strip that then complete a circuit locking the door and sending power to the circuit board as in your description on the page about door interlocks. 

However, when I put things back together the door wasn't locking. When I took the lock apart again I noticed that the height of the lever that connects to the bi-metal strip varies depending on the rotation of the wheel. Seems the notches are at different heights and some complete the circuit and others don't.  When I  moved the wheel on one notch and put it back together this time the door locked again.  I'm curious about the different heights.

Sorry about the rambling post - just hoping there's some clue in there, although I don't hold out much hope.

It really is galling -  I'm pretty convinced this is something simple that will be one of those "Of course!"  moments once it's discovered.  Nothing was wrong other than the noisy pump. That was fixed, so why all of a sudden no power past the lock?

Before I call in an engineer, I'm going to try and get to the circuit board and start tracing the signals. That a bit tricky without a service manual.

Any tips? 

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Hello Tony, with washing machines the term motor is always used for the motor and any pump is always just called a pump. How a door interlock works is described in a link on the article I linked to on my first reply. The only thing that could be wrong with your door lock if it still locks and releases is that the contact isn't made passing power on to the rest of the machine. This is unusual if the bi-metal strip is clearly working because it's locking the door.


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Hi Andy and andyr12345,

Couldn't look at this problem for a couple of days I was getting so flustered over nothing working.

After I calmed down I  took the pump out and tested that - works fine. Did some web research and found a switching on and button press sequence to reset and get error codes. Tried that - no luck - same as before - no lights so no codes.

However, friend suggested that moving it could have disturbed something that caused caused a dry join on the main board, or maybe water had gotten in and shorted something and to look into that.

Result is the attached files.

That looks fried to me. That's a black soot like deposit -  there are larger specks also on the board housing.

Having trouble finding a replacement that's not the price of a new machine and still needs programming - have found one good candidate but it has a slightly different code.  They look exactly the same but his is Elux code 132068803, mine is 132068802. 

Any idea if it might work?


DSC04406.thumb.JPG.fbffa036a16b4e8b3c74ed53336ff1c5.JPG
 

DSC04407.JPG

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Update:

The black sooty deposit is just that - soot. Friend suggested it was from the bushes being attracted by the magnetism in the choke.  I've cleaned it all off now.

Checked a few parts and that blackened resistor next to the larger blue cap had gone open circuit. Replaced it but it blew with a puff of smoke when I switched back on. And now there's no lights on at all. 

Back to the drawing board.  

Any, and all, suggestions gratefully accepted.

Wouldn't want to get an expensive new board, or a new machine, when it could just be a part that needs replacing.  

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Sorry I missed replying to your previous post with the photos. Yes it’s very common for people to misinterpret black sooty deposits on printed circuit boards. If it wipes off it’s just dirt and carbon brush deposits. If it’s something burned out it will be obvious when you try to wipe the soot away. 

If you are still intent on pursuing it I’d recommend getting in touch with QER electronic repairs who specialise in repairing testing and reconditioning appliance PCBs. 


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Hi Andy,

Thanks.  No problem.

I may contact QER as you suggest. However, if I had a circuit diagram myself I, along with much more electronics savvy friends, might be able to trace the fault more easily.  I'm not being stingy, just frugal. I'm on state pension and have to do my best to fix things before I splash out on replacements.

I'm guessing it's a power supply issue as it's drawing too much current through that resistor.  Maybe a cap, diode or that PWM Switch.  Curiously once I cleaned off the soot nothing looked untoward.  Even the original blown resistor looked fine.  Things can still be wrong even when they look OK, as they are in this case.

Still puzzled as to why it  all kicked off after I fixed then pump. 

I  really do appreciate the free advice and help.  It's not like you are being paid or anything. 

That replacement board that was only one digit out that I mentioned above - I have noticed that boards have different numbers depending on what year they were made so any thoughts on it?

 

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Hello Tony. Even manufacturer's engineers don't repair PCBs so there are no meaningful circuit diagrams for them. As an appliance engineer I have no clue about the workings of PCBs other than to check for dry joints and re-solder.  Did you lay the washing machine down when you worked on it before? There's always a possibility for water in the drum to run out onto parts depending how it's laid down. Also as mentioned in the link from my first reply, some parts going open circuit such as the motor and heater can cause symptoms of lights on but everything is dead. 


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Hi Andy,

The blown resistor is on the power supply part of the circuit board.  So the most likely candidate for the fault is the power supply.  It's a switched mode supply and I'm told by those more knowledgeable than me that when they go down it's usually the caps that are at fault.  I'm also told it's so common repair kits are sold that consist entirely of replacement caps.  The resistor that blew tells me there's too much current going through that part of the circuit.  That the replacement also blew tells me it's not the resistor so the caps will be the next line of enquiry,  followed by the other usual suspects. 

I fully understand engineers shying away from messing with PCBs. Repairing them is a non starter with all the surface mounted parts and chips but most, if not all, of the power supply side is workable.  A circuit diagram would help in tracing the circuit and identifying voltage test points. 

I take your point about the motor and heater, and will check these, but I can't see how these would cause excessive current draw through that part of the circuit where the blown resistor sits. The resistors, caps, diodes, transformer and the PWM chip are what controls the voltages and that, I think, is where where the fault lies. Of course, that fault could have fried other parts of the circuit before the resistor blew, but I won't know that until I get the power supply working - if I get it working.

Water is the most likely cause, as you suggest.  I put the machine it on its right side following a demonstration on youtube.  Unfortunately the control board sits on the right  side of the machine, which I didn't know at the time as I didn't need to take the top off the machine to get to the pump. Only later did I notice in the user manual that it's recommended to lay it on its back or front, so yes, water could have gotten inside the control board housing.

What was initially a simple, quick, cost free fix, has turned into a time consuming nightmare that may yet cost hundreds to put right. All because it was laid down on the wrong side.

Again, thanks for the advice and suggestions.

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Aye I would always lay one down on its front or back and only after draining as much water out as possible. Let us know how you get on.


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a lot of the time you can tell defunct caps by the way they bulge and sometime open top and sometime a bit of electrolyte leaking out of the capacitor and shorting out - but could be anything at this stage. be careful there with the board , most boards on washing machines have some huge capacitors and store some serious amount of juice even when washing machine plug has been pulled out of wall socket . and watch for live metal heatsinks as well! :o 

you can normally empty out the water in the drum with an emergency drain pipe normally next to the pop on an awful lot of machines, just take out the plug at the end of the tube and the water will eventually empty out of the drum .

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Good point andyr. I have an article about that too - seems like I have one for most things ;) 

Some pcbs can shock up to 5 minutes after being unplugged - electric shock warning if repairing an appliance that’s turned off

 


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Hi Andy and Andy,

Yes, I've been bitten by live caps before.  After all, they are little batteries. Keep one hand behind your back is good advice.  There's no visible evidence of a problem with the caps, but they can still be duff.

I did drain the water out, but not enough it seems.  The piece of foam that sits behind the control board housing was wet, so water getting to the board is very likely, thought the board itself was dry when I took it out.

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