Could under-loading be causing my machine to trip mains?

[Rollcage]

Hello Andy

I hope you are well. I haven’t been on this forum for a while. If you remember just over two years, I had many problems with several brand new washing machines which made life difficult, to put it mildly.

My current washing machine has been good to me for the past two years – up until recently.  It’s an 8kg Bosch Series 6 washer. I have been running the same two programs in the same order for the past two years with no problems. The programs I run are a full 60 degrees cotton wash cycle, which runs for two hours and ends with a 1200 final spin, followed by a separate 800 spin cycle, which runs for 13 minutes.  I use the machine about 2 to 3 times a week -- no more than this.

A couple of weeks ago, the machine came to the end of its 1200 final spin. The drum had slowed down and was just about to come to a halt when the mains tripped. I was concerned, but I put it down to a one off and forgot about it. After this, I used the machine several times (full wash cycles followed by 800 spins) with no problems and this further reinforced my view that the trip was a one off.

Then about a few days ago, I had the machine on and the cottons program was about to enter its second (and final) rinse phase. The drum slowed down. The water tap opened and it started filling and then the mains went. I immediately turned it back on and the machine continued the program from where it stopped. The cottons program ended successfully with the 1200 final spin. I ran the 800 spin program and this too completed successfully.

Ever since this recent trip, I have started to worry again. The machine is just over two years old and the warranty ended in March. I have been trying to think about what could be causing it to trip the mains. It just seems to have come out of nowhere.  I am wondering if it could be a light laundry load causing the drum to bounce and snag onto some stray internal wiring. When the machine tripped a few days ago, the laundry load contained following the items:

2 pairs of joggers

1 thick sweater

1 pair of cotton trousers

1 tea towel

2 boxers

2 cotton long sleeve t-shirts

1 pair of socks

It’s an 8kg drum and there was plenty of space left (1/3 or probably more). When I loaded the machine, I pressed the items down to ensure even distribution.

The only thing I can think of that may be causing the machine to trip the mains is that the laundry load is too light and it’s causing the drum to bounce and catch onto something. So far the trips happen when the drum is coming to a halt. To me this is unusual because the power draw must surely be low at that point in the cycle.

The trips would make more sense if they happened during high power consumption phases such as the wash cycle or during a high speed spin. But so far the trips have happened when the drum is coming to a halt. I just don’t understand why it is tripping at those points.

I am really worried that I am dealing with an intermittent fault again (I had the same issue with the brand new Bosch that my current machine replaced).

I am due to do another laundry load tomorrow and I plan to load the machine with a heavier load to see how it copes.

In your experience could under-loading a machine cause it to trip the mains intermittently?

 

I’d be grateful if you could share any thoughts you have based on the symptoms described.

[Whitegoodshelp (Andy)]

Hi. Yes I would initially be suspecting exactly what you suggest. With an unbalanced load, which is often a small load with something heavy like towels or sheets mixed with lighter items, the drum can bang about when ramping up to spin and when ramping down. At this point something can catch an short out, usually a chaffed wire somewhere. 
 

The large drum capacity washing machines can be very easy to under load. An engineer would disconnect the washer from the mains and remove the lid and back panel then search for a possible cause. Move and simulate the drum banging about and see if it catches anything. Check all the wiring harnesses and wires running through the machine. 

[Rollcage]

9 hours ago, Whitegoodshelp (Andy) said:

Hi. Yes I would initially be suspecting exactly what you suggest. With an unbalanced load, which is often a small load with something heavy like towels or sheets mixed with lighter items, the drum can bang about when ramping up to spin and when ramping down. At this point something can catch an short out, usually a chaffed wire somewhere. 
 

The large drum capacity washing machines can be very easy to under load. An engineer would disconnect the washer from the mains and remove the lid and back panel then search for a possible cause. Move and simulate the drum banging about and see if it catches anything. Check all the wiring harnesses and wires running through the machine. 

Hi Andy

Many thanks for the reply. That's what I've been thinking (and hoping). I haven't had any issues for the two years I've owned it, not even an error message. Then just out of the blue it starts tripping.  The intermittent nature of the problem reinforces my feeling that it is randomly catching something.

It's reassuring to know that large drum capacity machines can be easy to under load. I am going to test it with a heavier load today. From your post, it sounds as if I can't make the machine self-correct the issue by simply sufficiently loading the drum every time I use it. If it is indeed catching a wire, presumably that means I will have to get a Bosch engineer to correct it.

I will see how it goes today and post back with the results.

[Whitegoodshelp (Andy)]

Yes they push all these really big drum capacities but most people would struggle to fill the drum for most washes. If you don't fill the drum with a great big load you can under-load it and are wasting all the economical advantage of having a large drum capacity. If you buy a large capacity drum it should mean you wash half as often or otherwise there's little advantage other than you have the extra capacity for something that wouldn't normally fit in.

[Rollcage]

Hello Andy

I’m not sure whether the message I posted on Thursday was sent through for approval as I can’t see it in the thread. I ran the machine with a heavier load and it completed both the Cottons 60C program and the follow up 800-spin program completed with no problems.

I was relieved...until today. I decided to put in a heavier load again. This load increased the normal Cottons 60C program time to 2 hours 35 minutes (adding an extra 35 minutes to the usual 2 hours run time). The program spent 1 hour 30 minutes in the wash cycle. It then moved on to 3 rinse cycles (one more than the usual two rinses – due to the heavier load). It then arrived at the final spin, started spin up and then it tripped the mains.

So it seems a heavier load doesn’t resolve the issue. It also happened at a different point in the program this time. But there seems to be a pattern. The machine seems to trip when the drum is either coming to a halt or starting a spin cycle.

This problem has come out of nowhere. The machine has been flawless for two years. It looks as if I will have to call a Bosch engineer tomorrow.  At the moment I am hoping it is just some loose wiring catching. But in your opinion do you think it a more expensive component could be causing the problem?

The two year extended manufacturer warranty ended back in March this year. I am just worried that if it’s something like the motor, then I will be unable to afford to fix it as it’s out of warranty. In my view, a critical component failing after just over two years is ridiculous. Do you think I would have any recourse as a customer if it does turn out to be a more expensive fix?   

[Whitegoodshelp (Andy)]

Hi. A heavier load would not necessarily make the problem go away if the drum is catching on something due to movement. A full well balanced may be less likely to trip, but even the exact same wash load can vary on how stable it is on spin each time it's washed. The key to getting to the bottom of a fault like this is to disconnect the washer from the mains and remove the lid and back panel and then search for a possible cause. Move and bounce around the drum by hand to simulate the drum banging about and see if it catches anything. Check all the wiring harnesses and wires running through the machine to see if you can see anything the drum or motor could be catching on.

[Rollcage]

Hi Andy

Yep, I agree. The only way to resolve this is to get the covers off and see what's going on inside.  I have booked a Bosch engineer to take a look at it later this week. It will cost a flat fee of £99 for the call out, but I have been told that I won't be charged for any parts that may be required. I guess I got lucky there, especially as the machine went out of warranty earlier this year. 

I will see how it goes and will let you know of the outcome. 

Thank you for the reply and suggestions. 

[Whitegoodshelp (Andy)]

Thanks for the update. Make sure they don't fob you off with an, "I can't see anything wrong" report. Make sure you have a wash load already in the machine that you know has caused it to trip and make sure he fills it with water to make them properly heavy before testing on spin. Otherwise some engineers are likely to just test the machine with an insulation test meter where they are unlikely to find anything because it only trips at the end of spin. Then they may put it on spin (usually without asking for a test load) and of course it won't trip. Then they'll say they can't find anything (unless they can actually see something).

[Rollcage]

Hi Andy

Thanks for tips. Honestly, I am worried that with it being an intermittent fault, the engineer will find nothing and end up declaring it fault free. When I had my previous brand new Bosch (which this machine replaced), I had the same intermittent tripping problem. The first Bosch engineer who looked at it ran all the electrical tests and declared that he could not find any faults. The second engineer ran the same tests and fortunately it tripped while spinning and this lead him to conclude that it was a motor fault.

On both occasions the machine I had was never opened up. 

I will have to find some old heavy clothes for the test load. I am going to do my best to insist that the machine is opened up to check that all the wiring is in order as you suggested. I just hope the engineer doesn't end up thinking I am trying to insult his intelligence. 

I just have to cross my fingers and hope that the person who turns up will conduct a proper investigation. 

[Whitegoodshelp (Andy)]

Try to film it on spin you might catch it on video 

[Rollcage]

Hi Andy 

I did a standard laundry load today and had my smartphone's camera at the ready during the spin phases.

It completed both the Cottons-60 and 800-spin programs without tripping the mains. It really does seem as if I have another hard-to-replicate intermittent tripping problem.

The engineer is scheduled to visit tomorrow. I have a test load ready, but my hopes of it tripping on demand are low.

I will see how it goes.  I'll let you know of the outcome. 

Thanks

[Whitegoodshelp (Andy)]

Have you taken the lid and back panel off and had a look yourself? It could be something quite obvious. 

[Rollcage]

Hello Andy

 

Thanks. Unfortunately,  I am not confident about taking the covers off myself. I don’t even have right tools.

Where do I begin? The Bosch engineer turned up today and I instantly realised that he was same engineer who first looked at my faulty brand new 7kg Bosch (which my current machine replaced) two years ago. That machine had the same – but more frequent – intermittent tripping fault. On that occasion he declared the machine fault free and attributed the tripping to a faulty power socket in my home. He advised me to use another socket, which I did, and it continued to trip, forcing me to call out a second engineer who declared a motor fault. That machine, which was about three weeks old, was uplifted by John Lewis and replaced with my current one, which has been flawless for just over two years.

Anyway back to today. He recognised me and I reminded of the same intermittent fault I had with the previous Bosch two years (the one he declared fault free). I explained that my current machine was intermittently tripping on the spin down and spin up phases. I said the recent load I did yesterday completed with no problems.

He took all of this on board and pulled the machine out. My kitchen is tiny. He asked keep my 2 metre distance which I did, but this also meant I was unable to see exactly what he was doing. Once he had machine the pulled out, he ran the electrical tests. He said he needed to test the heater and motor. For some reason he came equipped with a new heating element. I told him it has never tripped during the wash phase of the cycle. I couldn’t see which program he was running, but I presume it was the quick wash.

He said the metre was show 9 amps and this was ok. While it was running, I suggested whether it could be the machine catching on some internal wiring. He said if it’s tripping it would either be the motor or the heater, but the tests were showing that these were fine.  

He then hopped to the back of the machine and unscrewed the back panel. He said wiring all looked fine. I asked him whether the drum could be “bouncing” and catching something. He held the back panel up and said if the drum was bouncing there would be marks on the inside of the panel (the panel was clean).  He also used those small devices with several lights to check the power sockets. After doing all of this, he said he wanted to run a longer wash program with clothes in drum on a different socket and that he would go and call me later to check how it was going.

When I heard this I just felt he was trying to attribute the fault to my power sockets again just as he did two years with the previous machine. I asked him what he thought the problem was and he said it’s probably my power socket. I reminded him that he told me the same thing two years ago and that if the sockets were faulty, my current machine would not be to run problem-free for two years. He said over time the wiring in the sockets can wear out (he said the same thing two years ago).   

I felt as if he was fobbing me off again with the “it’s your power socket” explanation. The machine has done over 300 washes over two years without ever tripping. My mains only trips when the machine is on. So with your advice in my mind, I just asked him to take the lid / top cover off and check the internal wiring thoroughly.

And that’s when things took a turn for the worse. He seemed incredibly insulted by this request. He said he didn’t need to take lid off as he checked the wiring through the hole in back panel. He asked me if I ran the machine on another socket I said yes and he said he didn’t believe me.

I reminded him again that he told me my socket was faulty last time which forced me to call a second engineer and that I could not afford to do that again. Upon hearing this he told again that I need to test the machine on a different socket and that I could get a second opinion if I am not satisfied with his diagnosis.

 

I asked again if he could look at the wiring properly. He went to back panel and said “ok you’re the engineer you look at it”. I said I was not trying to undermine him and asked again if he could top cover to check the wiring. By this time his body language and general behaviour was becoming more hostile.

Perhaps stupidly I said I was not going to pay unless he checked the wiring. (I was struggling to contain my frustration about the fact that he was literally attributing the fault to the same reason he used two years ago.)

And at this point he had enough. He said he didn’t need to be here and that he was no longer going to carry on with the job because I said I wouldn’t pay. I attempted to reason with him by saying that I would be happy to pay if he just checked the internal wiring properly. He refused to do it. He hastily screwed the back panel on pushed machine back in and left it wobbling and did not plug it in. The plug socket is located in an awkward location which was difficult for me to reach. I have managed to reposition the machine so that it does not wobble. He left without saying anything.

I contacted Bosch straight away and they have referred the case to the complaints department. I have not paid for the call out yet. So now I still have machine that intermittently trips and it is likely I will have to part with £100 for nothing. I don’t think my request was unreasonable. I just feel so depressed about it at the moment and feel as if I have no recourse.

If I had known, I would be getting the very same engineer who incorrectly declared my previous machine fault free, I would have asked for someone else. He has literally attributed to the fault to the same thing he said was the problem two years – my power socket. That my current more powerful machine has managed to deliver successful fault free washes for just over two years while connected to the supposedly faulty mains socket seems to make no difference to his power socket theory.  

Bosch has told that if I arrange for a second engineer visit and they don’t find a fault, I will be charged another £100. I can’t afford that. I don’t know where to turn or what do next.  I didn’t expect to receive this kind of service from Bosch of all manufacturers.

 

Any thoughts on the engineer’s fault-finding methods and diagnosis or advice welcome.

 

[Whitegoodshelp (Andy)]

18 hours ago, Rollcage said:

Thanks. Unfortunately,  I am not confident about taking the covers off myself. I don’t even have right tools

That's a very sensible attitude, I hate the thought of anyone messing about with things they aren't sure about. 

 

18 hours ago, Rollcage said:

While it was running, I suggested whether it could be the machine catching on some internal wiring.

As I predicted, of course they will test OK. The fault causing tripping only happens on spin - and only then for a fraction of a second. The fact that when it trips, the washing machine subsequently works perfectly well shows that the cause is not only intermittent but very fleeting. So even after it has tripped the engineer is unlikely to detect anything. This is exactly what would happen if the drum was catching something or a chaffed wire somewhere in the harness is touching something as the drum moves around. It's not the only possibility but definitely the first suspect to investigate.

 

18 hours ago, Rollcage said:

He said if it’s tripping it would either be the motor or the heater, but the tests were showing that these were fine.  

You could say if a washing machine is tripping that the most common causes are the heater and motor - but not that they are the only causes by any stretch.

 

18 hours ago, Rollcage said:

He held the back panel up and said if the drum was bouncing there would be marks on the inside of the panel (the panel was clean).  

Not necessarily. If it is bouncing side to side it should never touch the back panel. If it is bouncing very violently then you would expect marks or dints in the sides, but it isn't necessarily bouncing that violently. You would hear it thumping if it was. But on spin the drum may still be moving about enough to cause a chafed wire to short out. I've had lots of them, sometimes underneath the washing machine around the motor wiring harness for example. Remember though, I'm not saying it can only be cause by a wire - only that it's the most likely explanation considering the symptoms. 

 

18 hours ago, Rollcage said:

 He also used those small devices with several lights to check the power sockets. After doing all of this, he said he wanted to run a longer wash program with clothes in drum on a different socket

 

Those small testers can't test a wall socket properly. They are useful. I use them myself because they can detect if the live and neutral are the wrong way around, or if there is no earth at all. But they can't tell if the earth it detects is good enough, it could just be one strand of copper or a proper good earth but the tester wouldn't know. Wall sockets are tested by electricians using a proper insulation test meter.

Testing it in a different wall socket would only be helpful if it also tripped in the different socket. It would show that it wasn't just the wall socket you normally use. If on the other hand it did not trip in a different socket then that wouldn't prove anything.  It often completes cycle without tripping in the normal socket. 

 

18 hours ago, Rollcage said:

I asked him what he thought the problem was and he said it’s probably my power socket

The fault only ever occurs on exactly the same point of the spin cycle. So I can't imagine how a wall socket could possibly only ever trip at that point. If it only ever tripped on the wash cycle, when the washing machine is drawing the most power, then I could see some sense in suspecting that, but on spin the washing machine is using very little power. It only trips when the drum is ramping up or down from spin with certain loads in. I genuinely can't imagine how a wall socket could cause that.

However, I have had cases where the washing machine turned off the switch on a wall socket. It was caused because when the washing machine was pushed back into position the hoses pressed against the socket right at the back of the machine. Then when it went into a spin and the washing machine moved around a little it actually switched the socket off. If by any chance your wall socket is right behind the washing machine make sure the washer and hoses aren't pressing on it. If it has a switch it could potentially be knocking it and theoretically if it half pressed the switch of you could get arcing inside the switch that could trip a sensitive RCD.

 

18 hours ago, Rollcage said:

He said over time the wiring in the sockets can wear out (he said the same thing two years ago)

 

I would say wiring in walls and sockets can't wear out. It doesn't move, it's not subject to any stresses or strains. But wires connected to wall sockets can become loose if the brass screws they use to wire them in work loose. That's quite common. This would normally cause overheating of the wall socket and the plug during heating when it draws most power. That usually causes burn marks around where the plug plugs in. It would also normally only cause problems on the wash cycle.

 

18 hours ago, Rollcage said:

So with your advice in my mind, I just asked him to take the lid / top cover off and check the internal wiring thoroughly.

And that’s when things took a turn for the worse. He seemed incredibly insulted by this request. He said he didn’t need to take lid off as he checked the wiring through the hole in back panel.

 

It is 100% necessary to take off the lid and back panel, and also to inspect underneath the washing machine to properly investigate an intermittent fusing or tripping fault during wind down from spin. There are plenty of wires under the lid you need to inspect. 

 

18 hours ago, Rollcage said:

Bosch has told that if I arrange for a second engineer visit and they don’t find a fault, I will be charged another £100

 

Oh dear. As you know there is definitely a fault, and it only ever happens intermittently and at one specific point then if any engineer does not find a fault how can that mean there is no fault? If they don't find the fault it is only because they haven't the time to test and check it properly. Intermittent faults can be a nightmare, and unfortunately engineers don't have the time to spend on them if the cause doesn't show up straight away. This is why I suggested you try to catch it doing it on video but of course it might take several attempts to do it. 

If an engineer can't find a fault then there are only two possible explanations, either they haven't been able to find it due to lack of time, lack of experience or just the difficult nature of it - or the customer is completely imagining the whole thing. The latter of course is ludicrous for any engineer to imply. No engineer can say with any certainty that if they can't find a fault then there is nothing wrong. 

I have an article about that here Repair company want to charge if engineer can’t find fault

I can only advise that you only use the washing machine in a different socket and film it every time it comes to the spin section until you film it doing it. You can then say 2 things for certain, that it is not the socket you normally use and there is without doubt a fault that they cannot deny.

 

 

 

 

 

[Rollcage]

Hello Andy

 

Many thanks for the analysis. I really appreciate it. Even to me, as a non-professional, it feels as if it’s just catching a stray wire every now and again. So far when it has tripped, it trips only once during the program. Every time I have reset the RCD, it continues where it left off from and completes the program.

Just yesterday I did another laundry load and both programs (Cottons-60 followed by an 800-Spin cycle) completed successfully on the supposedly faulty socket. I once again spent 30 minutes trying to video it tripping during the rinse cycles or final spin, but nothing happened.  

When he said there would be scratches on the back panel, I said to myself that there wouldn’t be any marks if the drum were bouncing side to side.  Perhaps I should have mentioned it. He probably would have taken offence to that, too.

Regarding the power socket, he told me the exact same thing two years ago. He said the primary mains socket I use for the machine is likely faulty and that I should use another socket. I took his advice on that occasion and plugged my previous machine into the other wall socket. It continued to trip the mains. That’s why I was frustrated by his suggestion to run a long  wash program on the other socket. I’ve done it several before with the previous Bosch and it still tripped the mains.

My contention was that how could a power socket which he deemed faulty two years ago be able to power my current bigger 8kg machine for just over two years without any trips. Surely a faulty wall socket would have not been able to last that long with the demands of a high-power appliance.

As mentioned my previous machine also tripped several times on the other socket. I doubt both sockets are faulty. Even if I went to trouble of running my current machine on the other socket, there is no guarantee that it would trip, so on each occasion I would have to drag the machine out from its original position to plug it into the other socket, all in the hope that it would trip.

I just think he is fobbing me off with the same diagnosis he used two years ago and personally I don’t believe that the socket is at fault. As you say if it genuinely was the socket, it should trip during the power intensive wash cycle. It has never done this.

It has only tripped when the drum is coming to a halt, or about to start ramping up. It also tripped when the entire cycle came to an end and the machine was about to start beeping to signal the end of the program. Again these are all low power moments in the machine’s operating cycle.

The machine’s wall socket is located underneath my sink at the far end. The machine is located in front of the sink under the worktop (think of an L shape with the machine being under the short side of the L and the sink top running across the long side. The socket is located where the two lines meet). There is a wooden panel separating the socket and machine. In other words, there is a clear physical separation between the machine and the socket, so there’s no chance of the machine or the drain hose coming into contact with the power socket.

Owing to the awkward location of the socket that the machine is plugged into, I rarely touch it. I’ve only had to touch it when there has been an issue with the machine. The socket is solely dedicated to the washer. Nothing else ever gets plugged into it. I inspected the plug and it looked fine, no black burn marks or damage.

I don’t understand why he had such a problem with taking the lid off. It’s not really a big thing for him to do. It seems like the most obvious thing to during the initial fault finding investigation. He didn’t even try to move the drum around nor did he look underneath the machine. He just kept telling me that he could inspect all the wires through the hole at the back. It felt as if he wanted to attribute it all to the socket, again.

Yep, the fact that it is intermittent is incredibly frustrating. It’s also less frequent too, compared to the previous Bosch, which makes it harder to capture. Full laundry load done yesterday and it was all fine. I’m going to try again tomorrow and see what happens.

My main aim is just to try to capture it tripping at least once and have the evidence on video. Switching to the other socket is going to be a big inconvenience as I will have to bring the machine out into the main kitchen area on each occasion. There’s also balancing issues I am concerned about as the tiling on my floor is uneven. The machine is rock solid in its original location. I can’t be sure that will stay like that once it is moved. I think my best bet is to try to capture it tripping on video and work from there.

I still haven’t paid for the call out, but if I am forced to then I will cough up. But I will raise my concerns with Bosch about the way the engineer decided to do things. From my point of view, he deliberately skipped an important part of the fault finding process for no good reason. I am also going to bring up the previous machine and how he also told me to use the other socket which did not stop the machine from tripping.  

I’ll keep you posted.

 

Thank you again.

[Rollcage]

Hello Andy 

Just an update on my situation. So I have done four full executions of the Cottons-60 and 800-spin programs in a row. All of them completed successfully with no trips. I had my camera out ready to capture it tripping, but nothing happened. I have also heard back from Bosch's customer service department. This is what they have told me following the engineer's visit: 

"I note that on the engineer’s attendance he carried out a full inspection of your appliance because you had reported that it was tripping your electrics.  He tested your appliance on the 15 minute express wash, and no errors were detected during this cycle, it progressed through each transition without issue and no fault was found to be with the motor on your appliance.  He inspected the machine for error messages from the appliance however no historical messages were stored and no new messages were logged following the cycle.  It was therefore determined that following a PAT test, that your appliance was working as it should be and in accordance with the manufacturers specification.  Our engineer did ask if you would be happy for him to perform the same 15 min cycle using a different socket however this was declined.

Unfortunately I have to advise that as no fault was determined with your appliance and as your appliance is outside of the manufacturer’s warranty then charges are fully applicable.  This was explained to you prior to arranging an engineer visit by the agent and in accepting a visit you have therefore accepted and entered in a contract with us with the full knowledge that charges would be applicable.  Payment is therefore due by return."

I have responded to them stating I disagree with the conclusion and have explained why. The engineer wanted to run a longer wash cycle  (lasting for over an hour) on the other socket, not a 15-minute quick wash as Bosch say. They also say that a "full inspection" was carried out, despite the fact that he refused to take the top cover off to look at the wires. It really feels as if the engineer is going to be able to get away with deliberately not fully inspecting the wiring.

I still have the intermittent fault and feel as if I am about to lose a hundred pounds for a job that wasn't done properly. In my view given the nature of the fault, checking all aspects of the internal wiring was a crucial step that he deliberately choose not to do, even when I asked him to do it.

His excuse was that looking through the hole in the back panel was sufficient to rule out the wires. 

I haven't heard back from Bosch. 

Do you think I will just have to accept that Bosch's definition of a "full inspection" doesn't include taking the top cover off to inspect the wires?

Edit: got an update from Bosch's technical department today (19/06):

"The removal of the top of the appliance would have made no difference to what the engineer had seen through the rear of the appliance.  You can see the wiring loom in its complete entirety from the rear of the appliance and if there was any damage to the loom it would trip the customers RCD unit every time the appliance was in use, not intermittently as is being reported.

Having reviewed the engineer’s report, our engineer has carried out a full and thorough inspection on the appliance and also checked the components that would cause the customers RCD unit to trip as reported, these have passed the electrical test.  Therefore there may be an earth leakage, as referred to on page 30 of the user manual, this would be classed as “nuisance tripping”.  The manual refers to the type of protection by an RCD (earth leakage circuit breaker) and what type we recommend to prevent this from happening, we can only suggest that the customer employ an electrician to change the RCD in accordance to this reference if their consumer unit is not the same."

So now they are saying the removal of the top cover wouldn't have made no difference.

Any further thoughts appreciated. 
 

[Whitegoodshelp (Andy)]

Sorry I didn't get a notification about this. I disagree that a thorough inspection of the machine and all its wiring could be done without removing the lid, especially if there's only a small inspection hole in the back panel! Unfortunately unless you can show there is a fault that he missed by inspecting it yourself or getting an independent engineer (which of course is gambling more money) it's not possible to prove they have missed something. The other problem is it is possible for RCDs to be sensitive and trip intermittently but it seems less likely that this would only trip your washing machine at the same point every time.

It's typical that it never trips when filming it! But if you persist it should do it eventually. You shouldn't have to watch it all through cycles only set a reminder on phone to catch the last 10 mins. 

[Rollcage]

On 09/07/2020 at 12:04, Whitegoodshelp (Andy) said:

Sorry I didn't get a notification about this. I disagree that a thorough inspection of the machine and all its wiring could be done without removing the lid, especially if there's only a small inspection hole in the back panel! Unfortunately unless you can show there is a fault that he missed by inspecting it yourself or getting an independent engineer (which of course is gambling more money) it's not possible to prove they have missed something. The other problem is it is possible for RCDs to be sensitive and trip intermittently but it seems less likely that this would only trip your washing machine at the same point every time.

It's typical that it never trips when filming it! But if you persist it should do it eventually. You shouldn't have to watch it all through cycles only set a reminder on phone to catch the last 10 mins. 

Hi Andy 

Thank you for your reply. I presumed you had taken a break from the forum, so I didn't check back in for a while.

I agree with you. I find it unbelievable that they insist that all the wiring can be properly inspected through the back panel.

I settled the fee for the call out (they sent me a demand for payment). Bosch also suggested that I install an RCD with an electrical symbol that has what I can best describe as two curly lines (my RCD doesn't have this symbol). 

I have been filming it since 14 June and it never tripped once. I stopped filming it a couple a weeks ago because I just thought 2 months worth of filming every rinse and final spin cycle was enough to conclude it had stopped tripping.  

Unfortunately today, it tripped the RCD for the first time since the engineer visit. This time it did it as it was getting ready to start its final spin. It just happened out of nowhere. I just don't know what it could be.  Nothing has changed in terms of the electrical set up in my home. If it's my electrical wiring then the trips would be more frequent. I had two months of no trips and now it is back.

It has to be something to do with the washer itself. I've looked at videos on YouTube that describe how to diagnose intermittent "nuisance" trips and they all suggest that if it trips only when a particular appliance is in use, then it is likely that there is a fault with the appliance.

I never get any trips when the machine is not in use. I just don't know how to get Bosch to understand this. 

Edited August 30, 2020 by Rollcage

[Whitegoodshelp (Andy)]

Hello Rollcage. Unfortunately something went wrong with email delivery and I got no notifications at all but  I just thought the forum had gone quiet :-)

Of course it's completely typical that it never does it while you are videoing. Unbelievable, yet so typical. The only thing you can do is persevere until you catch it or pay an independent engineer to thoroughly inspect it and hope it finds something. Please keep us informed and good luck.

 

[Rollcage]

36 minutes ago, Whitegoodshelp (Andy) said:

Hello Rollcage. Unfortunately something went wrong with email delivery and I got no notifications at all but  I just thought the forum had gone quiet :-)

Of course it's completely typical that it never does it while you are videoing. Unbelievable, yet so typical. The only thing you can do is persevere until you catch it or pay an independent engineer to thoroughly inspect it and hope it finds something. Please keep us informed and good luck.

 

Hi Andy

I see. I would have replied earlier, but I honestly thought you decided to take a break. It's good to see you back. 

Just when I thought it was all over, the gremlins return. It's just puzzling. I plan to start filming again tomorrow.

I will keep the thread updated.

Thanks again

[Rollcage]

Hi Andy

Just updating thread. So I did a full load with my usual Cottons 60C w/ 1200rpm final spin, followed by an 800rpm spin. Both programs completed successfully with no tripping.

I've also discovered that the circuit breaker that trips when the machine is in operation isn't actually the circuit breaker responsible for covering the circuit that the machine (and my other kitchen appliances) is on. My electric board isn't labelled and I've never bothered to work out which circuit breaker covers which set of sockets and lights in my home. I decided to work this out manually yesterday and discovered that the breaker that trips on the board and cuts the power is responsible for another circuit and not the one that the machine is on.

I was pretty surprised by this as up until yesterday I just presumed the breaker that was tripping was the one responsible for the washing machine's circuit. So now I don't know if it's a fault with the machine or my electrics. It just can't just be a coincidence that I intermittently get a trip and an interruption to my power supply when the machine happens to be running. Logically if there is a fault with the machine or the circuit that the machine is on, then the breaker that is responsible for protecting the machine should trip. Instead the breaker on another circuit trips and cuts the power until I reset the RCD. 

  

[Whitegoodshelp (Andy)]

Hi Rollcage. Thanks for the update. I can't imagine how any appliance could trip a fuse on a separate circuit. It sounds like you need a good electrician to check it all out.