Miele Or Aeg?

[yoj13]

Hi,

I have just found this website today and to say I'm impressed is an understatement so thank you washerhelp! Sadly, my old Hoover 1100 Logic appears to have come to the end of its useful life and whilst I have read your interesting article on Miele, I really wondered what you thought about the AEG L62810 which I can pick up at John Lewis for a very attractive £299 including a 2 year guarantee and free delivery. My friend has an AEG (replaced Zanussi) , its virtually never off, but she is really more than satisfied. It was more than the price quoted above, but as its a built in model, they usually are. Freestanding is perfectly OK for me.

Regards - yoj13

[uumode]

Re the Miele or AEG argument read the press release here - it sold me anyway

http://www.washerhelp.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=274

AEG track record for reliablity isn't as good as Miele, but it's in the top somewhere.

the 82810 according to Which? has a poor rinse performance (as do most washing machines)

it's bigger brother the 84810 has an acceptable rinse peformance (which is about as good as it gets)

and has a slightly better quick wash performance, and matches the performance of the entry level tested Mieles.

I was considering a 84810, but have decided on Miele now, since the price is only slightly cheaper than Miele.

But as 'most' washing machines tested by Which? have poor rinses, the 82810 is great value if you don't have any members who have skin problems, unfortunately I have 2 members, so a washing machine with a better rinse performance is a more logical choice for me.

[Whitegoodshelp (Andy)]

Thanks yoj13. I couldn't see the AEG L62810 washing machine on the John Lewis site, but I could see the L52810. They appear to be the same washing machine in essence and one may be superceding the other. They are both AEG, 6Kg capacity and 1200 spin and is also £299 with a 2 year guarantee at John Lewis. I would say that’s a good buy, a good washing machine with a good guarantee. Miele are better made, but clearly more expensive and if discounting Miele because of price, AEG would be in my list of others to look at. The AEG LS8610 has one of the best rinsing results on Which? with "acceptable" and I'm pretty sure the AEG L52810  is virtually the same washing machine.

As uumode mentioned, AEG are respected washing machines, they are owned by Electrolux, who also own the Zanussi and Tricity Bendix brands. It seems most modern washing machines are “poor” at rinsing according to Which? and this is disappointing. It shouldn’t be a problem unless you have very sensitive skin issues (always use the extra rinse feature if available). The problem is due to the reduction in water usage these days and the focus on wash results which presumably don't mark down for detergent being present after washing as long as they are spotlessly clean. Maybe a new energy label rating for rinsing is needed! Even though Which? seem to say all washing machines are "poor" at rinsing, they still show Best Buy washing machines that have "poor" against the rinsing section.

[uumode]

I couldn't see the AEG L62810 washing machine on the John Lewis site...

Dooh! typo by me.. I meant the 62810 and 64810... was a bit late at night

[j1974]

Hi!

I have an AEG 76660 Update, which I've owned for two years or so now. I too considered a Miele when choosing my machine (I had an LG before which constantly played up), but the AEG had a better spin speed and larger drum than the entry level Miele. I've never had a problem with my machine. They're well made and quiet running. Virtually silent when washing, you can just hear the clothes tumbling round the drum, during spinning, you can easily have a conversation over the machine, even at 1600rpm!

My machine has a Rinse+ option, but I've never needed to use it, even though I suffer from sensitve skin. I have found I don't need to use as much detergent as I used to with my machine, to get acceptable wash results. I tend to use a liquid detergent in a dosing ball, or just one tablet of detergent when washing whites at 60c (liquid detergent doesn't contain bleaching agents!). Most "fuzzy logic" machines will sense if you've over-dosed with detergent and add extra rinses automatically.

I really wouldn't hesitate in recommending AEG washing machines to you. If you want to know anymore about my experience with my machine (I have video of it in action! lol), just send me a message and I'll reply a.s.a.p. Hope I've been of some help.

[yoj13]

Hi,

Thank you very much for your swift replies! I am now going to check the 'shopbots' for prices for both Miele W1512 and the AEF L 5/621810 and see what comes up. Someone mentioned on another thread that they picked up the Miele for just over £400 (I think at Currys with a code) which is really cheap and if I can find it around this price, I will take the advice I have been given and go for the Miele. So its off to do some searching and spend some of my hard earned cash. Thank you so much once again. Regards - yoj 13

[uumode]

I thought I would post a couple of Miele press releases here:

Press Release

No. 067/2006

Thorough testing a holy tradition at Miele

Only the best sent to market

Televised casting auditions have become 'en vogue' in Germany recently. At the German appliance manufacturer Miele, on the other hand, stringent test procedures have a much longer tradition. And there's one more key difference: At Miele, only perfect candidates move on to the next round!

Long before production begins, even small and seemingly unimportant components are subjected to a strict test regime, otherwise they stand no chance of becoming part of a Miele quality product. And passing initial tests is still no guarantee that these components will make it to market. From the conceptual stage through to series production is a long and stony path. Models, prototypes, pre-production samples and internal test-market appliances are just some of the stages products have to go through. Each quality test station comprises laboratory experiments, fresh tests and a meticulous evaluation of results. And each component or machine must be personally signed off and approved at each stage of the process – without exception.

Endurance test laboratory

The endurance test laboratory is a veritable assault course: Here, washing machines are expected to survive 5000 programme cycles at the highest spin speed and temperature settings. The same cycle count also applies to tumble dryers and equates to a product life of 20 years. Sporadically throughout the test, at the latest at the end of the cycle, an additional programme ('Woollens' or 'Synthetics') is run with a maximum water level to check for leaks. The test laundry comes from surplus army stocks and has properties similar to denim. The fabric is particularly rugged and is able to survive approx. 300 wash cycles. Turkish towelling is also used as test loads.

And once endurance testing has been successfully completed, that's when data evaluation commences, involving sifting through the spin speed, water and electricity consumption figures collated during testing. After that, machines are completely dismantled so that each component and detail can be scrutinised.

Laundry-care laboratory

At first sight, the laundry-care laboratory is reminiscent of an oversized launderette: Various models stand shoulder to shoulder in neat rows, humming quietly as they run. There's no shortage of work here because laundry pre-soiled according to the EN 60 456 standard is delivered by the metre. Laboratory employees cut the cotton fabric soiled with red wine, cacao, blood, a mixture of mineral oil and soot, and black tea into 15 x 15 cm swatches. But it isn't patchwork quilts they're making: The cloth squares are sewn onto test loads consisting of towels, sheets and pillows, again complying diligently with regulations. And there are even rules covering how laundry is loaded into the machines. Detergent dispensing, too, is equally regulated: Machine operatives weigh each of the constituent components of the detergent to a precision of 1 gramme before pouring the finished powder into the dispenser in the usual way. After every fifth cycle, a programme is run without powder to 'normalise' the laundry. After use, the laundry is reconditioned in order to precisely determine its weight for the next round of tests. After 20 wash cycles, a quarter of the load representing the oldest items are replaced by new ones. This ensures that the average age of the laundry is maintained at constant levels.

Special software enables consumption data to be monitored automatically. Newly compiled programmes for specific applications are the subject of repeated 'tweaking', requiring detailed information on water and energy consumption. At the end of the day, this attention to detail is not without success: An 'A' rating for energy efficiency is the absolute minimum any Miele washing machine is expected to achieve.

While some sensors record current consumption, water useage and times, others take note of temperatures, pressure and water levels, rotational speeds and drum rhythms. Computers register and process the data. Testing also covers creasing and shrinkage, two factors particularly important in a range of special-purpose programmes which first began with a cycle for hand-washable woollens and now covers a whole range of programmes including a patented 'Automatic' programme and cycles for shirts, jeans, dark laundry, weatherwear, curtains and pillows as well as for an allergy-friendly wash, reproofing rainwear and washing new textiles. Intelligent mechanical action (water levels, wash rhythms and spin profiles) and temperatures and spin speeds capped to suit the needs of individual programmes, so central to the success of Miele appliances, have their origins in this laboratory.

Anechoic chamber

Acoustic power emissions are at the centre of attention in the acoustic laboratory and its anechoic chamber. Unlike acoustic pressure, which varies according to the room and its furnishings as well as the distance of the human ear from the sound source, sound power is measured under objective and empirical conditions and is not coloured by ambient influences. In-house quality standards guarantee that a reassuring but inobtrusive continuous hum remains one of the many quality features of Miele machines. Any measures required to comply with standards are developed and implemented by the team of experts themselves.

Electromagnetic test laboratory

The market for appliances with electronic controls is growing fast, presenting a whole new range of challenges – not least with respect to electromagnetic compatibility (EMC). Miele appliances should neither interfere with other devices nor be interfered with. That's why they are put to the acid test in the EMC laboratory long before they reach a marketable stage. A high-tech generator is used to simulate the various signals emitted by, for example, mobile phones and TV transmitters. Signals are amplified to represent different levels of interference. As it is not possible for the physicists to be present in the room during these tests, cameras are used for visual and acoustic monitoring. Electromagnetic fields are another focus of testing in this laboratory. The all-important objective is to protect consumers against possible hazards. Any EMV-related problems are remedied working closely with the electrical design engineers just a few buildings away. As a result, Miele machines are always well below any legally imposed safety levels, with proof of compliance highly visible on the dataplate in the form of a stamp of approval from Germany's VDE materials testing institute, specialising in electrical and electronic equipment.

Mechanical test laboratory

A further battery of tests awaits hopeful machines in the mechanical test lab. Special safety tests require for instance that a machine door is opened and closed no less than 60,000 times in rapid succession. And, just in case a customer decides to lean on an open door, a 17 kg weight is attached during testing.

Other tests are designed specifically for toploaders: Here, it is not uncommon for lids to be opened 60,000 times to eliminate any risk of injury. In the hinge tests, lids are operated three times a minute. In the extended version of this test, aimed at ensuring that the autopositioning system reliably aligns the drum hatch with the lid opening each time, a robot is called on to open and close the inner and outer lids once a minute.

Further special tests are required to minimise the vibration of side panels and increase stability during operation. Rubber mats in the drum simulate extreme imbalances during the run-up to high spin speeds.

But it doesn't stop there, either: Individual components and even the packaging are subjected to the same strict test regime. Individual tests are far faster and more efficient than when parts are already installed in the machine. One of the more spectacular tests ascertains the ability of water inlet hoses to withstand pressure. Here, a team of experts measures the pressure needed to cause a hose to rupture. Manometric pressure is increased slowly and readings recorded along the way. To meet legal requirements, hoses must be designed to withstand a pressure of at least 31.5 bar. Miele's in-house standards are twice as high: Hoses must be pressure-proof to at least 70 bar. In other words, inlet hoses should not burst until the pressure has risen beyond this level – as experiments demonstrate in the most impressive of ways.

Packaging tests comply with a set of rules laid down by the German railway authorities. A trolley, for example, rolls a packaged appliance down a 3.2 m inclined plane against an impact surface. This is the way railway experts simulate shunting collisions - and Miele's way of ensuring that high-quality products arrive on customers' doorsteps unscathed and in one piece.

Forever better.

But why does Miele go to such lengths to test its appliances? Because good is simply not good enough! At Miele, 'Forever better' has been the cornerstone of the company philosopy since it was first established. This motto still applies today as ever before and is destined to take Miele into the future.

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and this one shows that they have a competitive advantage when it comes to delicate wash items, at least until 2017

Press Release

No. 096/2005

Miele wins legal battle over patent for honeycomb drum

Board of appeal of the European Patent Office ends opposition proceedings

Gütersloh/Munich, May 2005 - Miele has won the year-long legal battle over the invention of a very special washing machine drum. The patentability of the invention, registered for Miele as EP 0 935 687 B1, against which other German manufacturers had given notice of opposition, has been confirmed at the highest level by the board of appeal of the European Patent Office. According to this verdict, the Miele patent will remain in force and no other manufacturer may build washing machines with the patented Miele honeycomb drum before 2017.

The patent, registered as early as 1996 in Germany and a year later in Europe, allows only Miele to manufacture a drum with a sculptured honeycomb surface. A special production method, which is also patented, is used in the manufacture of the new honeycomb drum. The drum perforations to facilitate suds circulation are located at the points where three hexagons meet. There are approx. 700 holes in the new Miele honeycomb drum compared with around 4000 in the previous drum. With a diameter of 2 mm, the holes are also smaller than before when they had a diameter of 2.3 mm.

The new surface structure of the drum and the reduced surface covered by perforations means gentle laundry protection during washing and spinning. On account of the sculptured drum surface and the reduced number of holes, water is not released from the inner drum as quickly, resulting in more water being pushed ahead of the lifter bars as the drum turns. This results in the creation of a film of water between the laundry load and the body of the drum, cushioning textiles against the drum. This reduces the mechanical action on textiles in both the wash and spin cycles and results in demonstrably less fabric strength loss in the Miele honeycomb drum compared to its predecessors.

This gentle laundry care is confirmed in the WL 2019/00 report from 2000 compiled by Germany's independent Krefeld Laundry Care institute (WfK), which says: 'After 15 wash cycles using pre-washed standard cottons fabric swatches, Miele's honeycomb system shows clear benefits over comparable machines. There was no pimply structure apparent on the laundry after a programme which included a spin cycle in the Miele honeycomb drum. Laundry lay in a loose heap in the drum.' The report further confirms that even at a breakneck 1800 rpm, no impressions are left by the drum holes on fabrics and there is certainly no laddering. After spinning, laundry falls loosely from the drum walls - without any impressions being left by laundry plastered against the drum and forced through holes. Pimples on laundry after spinning is a common occurrence in drums with larger perforations as a result of centrifugal force.

As early as 2003, the 'Stahl-Informations-Zentrum' (Steel Information Centre) in Düsseldorf awarded its steel innovation prize to the Miele honeycomb drum. According to the jury, 'The domestic appliance manufacturer Miele & Cie. KG uses the excellent ductile properties of stainless steel to produce a new sculptured honeycomb surface. During production, a special new method is used which creates a honeycomb surface with new properties. This honeycomb drum, in which the number and size of holes have been greatly reduced and their arrangement modified, guarantees gentle laundry protection during both washing and spin cycles – even at high speeds.'