Buying A New Washer But Concerned With Trend To Low Water usage

[NewVsOld]

Hi,

I'm buying a new washing machine but I'm concerned about the increasingly smaller water quantities they use, and the effect this has on wash and rinse ability. Would anyone know if this model or Siemens in general have the ability to increase water level during rinse, or at least increase length of rinse and amount of water used? I know LG have a medical rinse option which supposedly increases water rinse volume. Is their anything like this on Siemens?

[Whitegoodshelp (Andy)]

I would suggest researching at Which? who have reviewed that model Which? why you should join?

However, one of their comments is that it uses more water than average, which they deem a negative point so I suspect it might be what you are looking for <fileStore.core_Emoticons>/emoticons/default_smile.png

[NewVsOld]

I would suggest researching at Which? who have reviewed that model Which? trial offer details

However, one of their comments is that it uses more water than average, which they deem a negative point so I suspect it might be what you are looking for

My thinking was along those lines. The specifications of models do nowdays give water usage. My thoughts were that higher water usage should corespond to better rinse. Interestingly my limited reasearch of mid to high range machines show anywhere from 35L-70Lish! A+++ rated machines will usually use least amount of water and a-a+ more. this model uses 47L standard rinse. Their is a rinse+ function but I was wondering if this setting (most machines will have some sort of increased rise control) simply increases length of rinse or both legth and/or water volume during that rinse?

[Whitegoodshelp (Andy)]

Yes it seems you can select to have more thorough rinsing option.

[NewVsOld]

Thanks for the reply. On a slight tangent. I am a throw it all in as much as I can washing style. I know, not the best but I bet more than 50% if not more people wash this way. My question is with newer washing machines that weigh your load will this hamper my style? I pack my 5.5kg Creda Simplicity quite full, will a newer washer like the above Siemens spit the dummy and not operate or will it just advise I've put too much but run anyway?

[Whitegoodshelp (Andy)]

You'll probably have a job filling an 8Kg drum. It's usually the opposite that causes the problems in that many people buy large capacity drum washing machines but don;t put enough in so they struggle to balance the load and sometimes don't do the final spin.

[NewVsOld]

I went ahead and bought the Siemens WM14Y590GB from John Lewis. It was delivered two days ago. Unfortunately the machine had some minor damage to the top. It was underneath the packaging so I didn't notice it until I went to install it. The top of the machines surface has been punctured/torn by a few cm, by what must have been a forceful knock or concentrated pressure. The wrapping/cardboard was not peirced but appeared crushed so the washer was ethier damaged in the factory or excessive weight on the machine after packing has caused the damage to the machine underneath. It is in an area that wont be seen but does make me concerned about how the machine has been treated prior or during delivery especially as along the front of the machine accross the control panel similar crushing of the packaging was evident. I will contact JL and inform them of the damage of course. When installing the machine I also noticed that there was water condensation (inside) on the glass door and a pool of water on the door seal and obviously water has been around the drum. Is this normal for a new machine? Could the water have come from a factory test? Or is this a sign the washer is not new? I have yet to actually test the machine.

[Whitegoodshelp (Andy)]

I would think washing machines are factory tested so I wouldn't worry about the condensation though I'm not sure you'd normally get water in the door seal. Make sure there isn't any trace of detergent in the drawer. You could reject the machine and ask for a replacement saying you suspect it might have been dropped or something. Alternatively you would normally be offered some discount for the damage.

[johnh113]

Rapidly coming to the conclusion that ALL modern front loaders, no matter what brand, capacity or price are useless at giving both a good wash and a good rinse, the reduction in the consumption of electricity and water to achieve the magic A ratings has been a negative impact on what the machine is designed to do, although the old twin tub was a mega time consumer the results were perfection with the user determining the time and temperature of the wash followed by efficient rinsing and spinning. Is this progress ?

[JetSystem]

Rapidly coming to the conclusion that ALL modern front loaders, no matter what brand, capacity or price are useless at giving both a good wash and a good rinse, the reduction in the consumption of electricity and water to achieve the magic A ratings has been a negative impact on what the machine is designed to do, although the old twin tub was a mega time consumer the results were perfection with the user determining the time and temperature of the wash followed by efficient rinsing and spinning. Is this progress ?

I disagree. I think there are absolutely modern machines that rinse well. You just have to get a machine that has weight sensors that adjust the water level according to the load. Miele and Bosch both do this.

The Electrolux Group machines - Zanussi, John Lewis and AEG - have used low water levels since the late 90's and continue to do so.

Before I moved in with my partner, he had a Beko Excellence 1400 spin machine. The wash and rinse performance on that was excellent, with rinse levels half way up the door. It had 2 cottons cycles - cottons and cottons eco. The cottons eco used very low water levels and took a long time, but the regular cottons cycle was relatively quick with nice deep water levels.

[johnh113]

The only water seen in our Hotpoint's drum is splashed water from the tumbling clothes, earlier models had a water level clearly visible in the door glass. This modern washer also has load sensors but they are mainly for the adjustment of wash times I have not seen any increase in water level whatever the load,

[JetSystem]

The only water seen in our Hotpoint's drum is splashed water from the tumbling clothes, earlier models had a water level clearly visible in the door glass. This modern washer also has load sensors but they are mainly for the adjustment of wash times I have not seen any increase in water level whatever the load,

Yes, but the older Hotpoints took far less time to wash and rinse than the modern machines do. It's also worth noting that Hotpoint as we remember them no longer exist. The brand was bought out by Indesit in 2005 and every model since has just been a glorified Indesit with a Hotpoint stamp. The quality and washing ability of the newer machines is far lower than the old British made Hotpoints that lasted for years.

In my experience, overall, washing machines don't wash or rinse any better than they've ever done, it's just they use far less water and take a lot longer to get the same results.

Are you using "quick wash" at all? The quick wash option/cycle almost always skips a rinse to save time, so it will only do 2 rinses.

Most modern machines feature an "extra water" option - it's "water plus" on my Miele but I've seen it refered to as other names too. They also have extra rinse options, so if you're feeling particularly sensitive about the rinses in your machine, it might be worth using that.

[Whitegoodshelp (Andy)]

I think washing machines were better in the past. All this nonsense about being "green" has caused more problems than it's solved. For example, what's the point of using less water if they no longer rinse properly? (Why can’t modern washing machines rinse properly?)

Also, what's the point in them using less water and less energy if as a consequence they have to wash for up to 3 times as long shortening their lifespans and increasing breakdowns through all the extra wear and tear?

[JetSystem]

Also, what's the point in them using less water and less energy if as a consequence they have to wash for up to 3 times as long shortening their lifespans and increasing breakdowns through all the extra wear and tear?

I don't think that the increased cycle times have made machines more unreliable. I think machines are more unreliable because manufacturing costs have been cut to keep retail costs down. Washing machines are cheaper now than they've ever been. I have a 1988 Currys brochure at home. The cheapest washing machine you could buy was an Indesit at £199 on sale, but £199 in 1989 is the equivilant of £488.74 in todays money. And that was the cheapest. These days, people don't want to pay more than £250 for a machine and yet expect quality.

I also don't think the move to digitial PCB controls has done machines any favours. Mechanical timer machines were absolutely more reliable. Whilst they had less cycle options, they certainly lasted longer. But the fact that clothes are now made from cheaper materials, are cheaper to buy and less hard wearing has increased the need for more cycle options, which has pushed us towards digital controls as a mechanical timer can only hold so much programming.

[Whitegoodshelp (Andy)]

Hi JetSystem, I wasn't attributing all the low life expectancy of modern machines to the fact they take a lot longer to wash, just pointing out that taking so much longer to wash wears them out quicker and causes more breakdowns therefore shortening their life, increasing repair costs and virtually wiping out any so-called environmental savings by using less water.

On top of that, they are also not made anywhere near as well and I've written several lengthy articles about it on Whitegoodshelp, and that, I agree accounts of lack of longevity more than cycle time.

Even if they were made as well as they were in the past, increasing wash times by at least double will inevitably affect reliability and lifespan in the same way as a car doing 10,000 miles verses one doing 20,000.

Regarding PCBs, there's no doubt that they are theoretically substantially more reliable than mechanical timers, cogs and switches because there is nothing to wear out. However, they sold us the idea of PCBs being more reliable but they are only more reliable if they are made properly with high quality components - which many are not. That means the old timers, which used to be pretty reliable but subject to timer motors failing, switches sticking etc are more reliable than modern PCBs when if they were both made to the same quality standards PCBs would be considerably more reliable with no moving parts.